Author Topic: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov  (Read 42817 times)

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Offline lori_c

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2007, 08:59:43 AM »
Beaten so badly that his right eye had fallen out, his right ear torn practically off his head, his body and face showing numerous blows by a blunt, flexible weapon, his genitals crushed by blunt force, his back showing a gaping wound caused by a sharp object, his nose squashed and deformed, the Cyrillic letter G scatched into his right jaw by a sword or knife, all these little details of systematic torture were details left out of his funny little book by our painted little cross dresser and homosexual hero.
Then after subjecting the man to long torture our patriotic heroes left him lying there without benefit of aid or a priest while they go off and toast their success with rounds of drinking. Then they return and and cold bloodedly execute him in gangland style by shooting in the forehead at close range. Then in true Mafia style they try to dispose of his body by throwing it into the river.
These are not the actions of heores but assassins.
Rasputin had committed no crimes. He was guilty of breaking no laws. To say he deserved to be tortured then executed without defense or hearing is not only a sin it is also morally reprehensible. And Felix bragged about his actions without any show of remorse or Christian conscience. Of course, since you see such observations as moralistic trash I assume you find nothing wrong in cold blooded murder.
Don't be too sure little Felix wasn't intimately involved in the machinations that led to the fatal duel of his brother. Suggest you do some research on that.
And yes, only  a cuthroat would invite a man in to his home with the intent to murder him, no matter what century he was living in. Being sensitive, stylish and artistic doesn't excuse his bad manners and his bloody intent.
And while hundreds of thousands of young Russian men were being forcibly drafted to fight and die in this war, or being shot for desertion simply because they wanted to go home to visit their family, our gilded lily was draft-dodging his miltary service and living his hedonistic life in Petrograd. And his wife was taking the cure in the Crimea while thousands of women not so fortunate were working long and hard hours in the war factories and then enduring more long hours standing in line to get food for their family. How many ill or weary mothers and children in the cities got to go take a rest cure in the warm Crimea after desperately trying to stay warm without sufficient fuel. No wonder the Russian people sent these parasites running.
And, yes Felix milked his story for all it was worth. It is a well known fact that he lured Rasputin to his death by enticement of a meeting with Irina. But when a movie barely hinting at this came out Irina and Felix,
on the verge of bankruptcy and desperately sinking into abject poverty saw their chance and sued for "libel"- --and not once but twice. Thus they were able to live off the settlement.
Without his connection to the murder Yusupov would have faded into deserved obscurity like most of the other exiles.
James, though you and I are pleasantly on opposite sides of the fence alot, your post above covered everything I believe about Felix and the Rasuting issue.

You couldn't have said it better.

Offline James1941

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2007, 09:44:53 AM »
I don't wish to defend Rasputin. I won't begin to get into my opinion of him. And I don't condemn Felix for his lifestyle despite my rather lurid use of epithets in my post above. That was his own business. I just don't think he and his fellow conspirators are or were heroes when they committed this execution.
If you look at all the assassinations from the past which are regarded as patriotic or political acts--Caesar's, Alexander II's, Lincoln's, Franz Ferdinand's,etc.--they were all conducted in the light of day, in public before all the world to see, even at the sacrifice of the assassin. This murder was conducted in stealth, darkness and deceit, and sadistically.
Let us put such a scenario in a modern context, say Britain today. The Queen, or Prince Phillip, have a special friend. This friend is a working class man, or woman, who has a shady past and who gives the royal couple rather dubious political advice. While having committed no criminal or civil offense this friend has caused the monarchy very bad press and diminished its prestige. So, a rich duke, married to one of the queen's nieces, hooks up with one of the queen's younger cousins (a minor royal), and a Member of Parliament. They lure this special friend to the home of the duke (one of London's most elegant and exclusive addresses) where he is tortured, then shot in the courtyard. When a passing policeman tries to investigate the sound of shots the duke lies to him and tells him a drunken guest has shot a dog. Then the whole plot unravels and the duke, the minor royal and the MP are arrested on suspiscion of committing a murder. What would the modern reprecussions of this be? How would the public view the whole lot of the monarchy in the light of this, despite the unpopularity of the queen's friend. How would the world press handle such a scenario?
Dimitri came to realize that what they thought were actions to save the monarchy turned out to be just the opposite, and probably helped accelerate the downfall of the dynasty. He at least had the grace to be ashamed of what they had done. Had Felix shown even the tiniest bit of remorse for his actions I would have a higher opinion of him, for whatever my opinion of a historical figure is worth.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:50:23 AM by James1941 »

Offline lori_c

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2007, 10:00:32 AM »
Felix was always rather proud of it.  And part of what i meant when I said I agreed with the statement that he milked it for everything that it was worth.  I also am not defendiing either Rasputin or Felix.  I do agree with your assessment of what really happened and how it compares w/a similar situation in ANY time period.  Any public assassination. 


Also, I feel that Dimitri WAS remorseful and appalled that Felix would even begin to make money off the story.  I do have a higher opinion GD Dimitri.  But none of them were heros.  Felix solved absolutely nothing by the killing of Rasputin.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2007, 11:20:32 AM »
It seems to me that some here think Felix instigated this assasination of the starets.  He certainly was a player but not the star that he built himself up to be. However, this thread is about Felix & his personality. Not the murder of a Russian peasant, the viper in the breast of the Russian Imperial Family.
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Offline Johnny

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2007, 06:31:11 PM »
1.our painted little cross dresser and homosexual hero.

2.These are not the actions of heores but assassins.

3.Rasputin had committed no crimes. He was guilty of breaking no laws. To say he deserved to be tortured then executed without defense or hearing is not only a sin it is also morally reprehensible. And Felix bragged about his actions without any show of remorse or Christian conscience. Of course, since you see such observations as moralistic trash I assume you find nothing wrong in cold blooded murder.

4.Don't be too sure little Felix wasn't intimately involved in the machinations that led to the fatal duel of his brother. Suggest you do some research on that.

5.And yes, only  a cuthroat would invite a man in to his home with the intent to murder him, no matter what century he was living in. Being sensitive, stylish and artistic doesn't excuse his bad manners and his bloody intent.
James,
1.I would be a little more sensitive and respectful of others than throwing around such derogatory adjectives. Some people on this board might just be that.

2.They were not professional murderers. They had never killed a man and when they did try, everything went wrong. That's why a simple poisoning attempt turned into a brutal murder.

3. If that's how you think, it doesn't surprise me that you came up with what you said in no.1.

4. I did do my research. He had no motive to want his brother dead.

5. And the way you are condemning him it seems you actually believe his story that he planned and murdered Rasputin singlehandedly. He was one of many. He didn't even pull the trigger. Chances are Rasputin wasn't even poisoned. We don't exactly know who killed him. Many things are going on right now, like the war in Iraq, which to some look heroic now but who knows what they will think of it 80 years from now. We weren't around then, so we can't really judge fairly.

Belochka,

For me one life is as precious as another. Alexandra's life was by no means more precious than her lowest subjects'. I am personally against killings of all sorts, including capital punishment. But I also believe that numbers matter. Killing one person in order to save thousands is a no brainer to me. In case of Alexandra, she didn't have to be killed, just removed from her powerful position. Same goes for Rasputin. But people at the time thought differently. Besides, where was Felix supposed to imprison Rasputin (or Alexandra for that matter)? In his basement? Thousands of people died worse deaths than that of Rasputin as a result of Alexandra's stupid actions or inactions. That includes all those who perished under the soviet regime.The Jewish pogroms, her adamant opposition to real reforms in the rural areas becuase, god forbid, it could change her childish mental images of the idyllic pure peasant life. She said in her own letter, which I read, that the peasants should not be given European style freedoms because they are not ready for it.  Rasputin himself was a result of Alexandra's actions. Without her he would have been nobody. All that said, I find what happened to Alexandra at the end extremely unjust and tragic. I don't beleive in revenge and punishment. As long as the person is not in a position to do harm, that's more than enough for me. I am not happy that Rasputin was killed either. But in his case I find the alternative less attractive. It made no difference at the end, because he was killed too late. And my last point: Alexandra is more responsible for Rasputin's death than any of the actual murderers. If she had got rid of Rasputin in the first place by sending him back to his village and keepin an eye on him so he wouldn't misbehave, he wouldn't have been killed.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2007, 08:31:31 PM »
There is definitely a bigotry showing here.
Felix happily admitted to being a "painted cross dressing" party boy. So what? He could afford it both by his social position and his wealth. I have yet to see him listed amomgst any "homosexual heroes" of mine.
 James- what a narrow view.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline scarlett_riviera

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2007, 03:46:52 AM »
"And my last point: Alexandra is more responsible for Rasputin's death than any of the actual murderers. If she had got rid of Rasputin in the first place by sending him back to his village and keepin an eye on him so he wouldn't misbehave, he wouldn't have been killed."

I had never thought of it that way! But I kind of agree with you on this one. It seems that Alexandra was an immense source of frustration for the GDs and leaders then; for those who were desperately trying to save not just their way of living, but the rest of Russia as well, from completely falling apart. Murdering Rasputin was, perhaps, the final resort, but the act was done too late. I view Felix's actions as a desperate patriotic act, perhaps tinge with a few personal reasons, and it does not make me like him any less. 
Alexandra remained stubborn even when things were getting worse, refused to listen to those who knew the situation of Russia better. But I can't completely blame her for this because she was being fed false information by a few people from the government (correct me on this one if I'm wrong!), at least concerning the peasants, whose letters of support to the Imperial Family were actually worded by ministers. But then again, now that I think more about it, if she were truly a good empress, she would have known the whole truth of the situation. Unfortunately, she was distant from her people and ignorant of their needs. At least Felix was socially aware. 

In memory of Grand Duke Dimitri! The man had style.

Offline Johnny

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2007, 07:41:47 AM »
I agree 100% with you.
Татьяна: Кто ты - мой ангел ли хранитель?

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2007, 09:07:15 AM »
Hi,

I know this is a thread on "Felix" but we seem to be bringing Rasputin's reputation into it also.  And, that somehow he deserved to be killed......

My thoughts on this small question are:
1)  He seems to have done Alexis a world of good in helping him with his haemophelia.
2)  Alexandra, and to a degree Nicholas, seem to have tolerated Rasputin and indeed needed him for their son's wellbeing.
3)  The Czar should have banned Rasputin from any political influence but he was weak and Alexandra was running things.  Maybe The Czar was more responsible for Rasputin's eventual fate..
4)  He was a lecher, a drunkard and pretty much a low-life;  but what were Felix and Dmitry?  Were they any better?

Lastly, perhaps Felix was just "dining out" on his stories!  After all, as an aristocrat, he would have access to several royal and noble and 'noveau riche' tables and was just "singing for his supper" and Irina's too.

Any thoughts on this???

Larry
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 09:26:12 AM by Vecchiolarry »

Offline ashdean

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2007, 10:06:26 AM »

1.our painted little cross dresser and homosexual hero.

James, I am sorry to say that having read this remark, you show that you ,yourself are an assassin.. a character assassin...Peoples sexual orientation/gender is not something to be condemned by you in this manner...It is a remark unworthy of being allowed to be posted on this board & I think you should be ashamed to make such nasty remarks even about the long dead...

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2007, 11:24:09 AM »
The language and eptithets being used here have no place in an open historical discussion.  I will ask posters to more carefully choose their words and review their prose before hitting the post button..

Several readers have written me to complain about some of the posts. You all know which ones and who made them.

Thank you.

FA

Offline James1941

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2007, 02:23:28 PM »
With all due respect to the Forum Admin, I am afraid I DO NOT know which posts have been complained about, and I DO NOT know who they are. Could you be less cryptic? If accusations are going to be made, please make them openly. This only fair to all who have participated in this thread.

Just what language and epithets are being used that have no place in a historical discussion? Name them so that those using them can know what is unacceptable and not use such language again. Were are not children to be chided.

Again, one side may use derogatory remarks but should someone step in and take an opposing view, their remarks become subject to vague accusations and then suspension without being told why.

As one poster wrote above this is a place where we all come to learn and to discuss issues and ideas and personalities. That is what makes it so informative and interesting. Sometimes the facts can be obtrusive and abrasive. Does this mean we cannot explore them? The word FORUM, which this site purports to be, means a place where ideas and opinions can be openly discussed and debated, even if they might not conform to our own. If that can't be done here, then perhaps that rule might be made perfectly clear.

Offline James1941

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2007, 02:41:16 PM »
Now, to answer a few posts directed at me.
To Ashdean:
That Felix was an individual who painted his face in the female mode and wore women's clothes is not in doubt. He admitted it as much in his own memoirs. Individuals who have such proclivites are called "cross dressers." What can you object to for using the term. Is "transvestite" more acceptable?

His sexual orientation was probably homosexual, perhaps bi-sexual, although his later life indicated it was probably the former. What objection to that word do you have? What other word or words would you like me to use? I made no moral judgement. In fact, I replied that his private life was his own business. I make no moral judgement on his sexual activities. I have no right to do so. But, they do impinge on his actions as a historical figure and therefore are legitimate areas to discuss.

As to not discussing his life, then why have this thread? He is a historical figure. He has been written about, he has written his own books, and so on. Therefore he is a legitimate figure for discussion, no matter how long ago he died. Which, by the way, is not so long ago. He was alive in my lifetime, so I think I have some rights to discuss him
. I am sorry if my opinion of his character does not conform to your opinion of it, but that is my right. I find it just as objectionable on this thread for others to call him a hero. Will that objection be registered and such posts subject to being chided?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 02:47:09 PM by James1941 »

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2007, 03:06:19 PM »
First, let us get some genuine facts straight, since James1941 is presenting inaccurate facts to attempt to push his view, instead of have a genuine discussion.

Richard Cullen, a police forensics expert, has spent much of his time and money researching Rasputin's death.  Rasputin did NOT die a long suffering death.  There was no trace of poison anywhere in his system.  The first shot to his liver was fatal within ten minutes, the second gunshot to his head was instantly fatal. Anything which happened to the body happened after the second gunshot and so was to an already dead corpse. Rasputin was not tortured before his death. The body was not "mutilated" nor initials "carved" into his face. PLEASE read the orignal autopsy, its elsewhere in the forum. Your statementa: "Beaten so badly that his right eye had fallen out, his right ear torn practically off his head, his body and face showing numerous blows by a blunt, flexible weapon, his genitals crushed by blunt force, his back showing a gaping wound caused by a sharp object, his nose squashed and deformed, the Cyrillic letter G scatched into his right jaw by a sword or knife, all these little details of systematic torture...after subjecting the man to long torture our patriotic heroes left him lying there without benefit of aid or a priest while they go off and toast their success with rounds of drinking. Then they return and and cold bloodedly execute him in gangland style by shooting in the forehead at close range." ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE HISORICAL RECORD.  You are attempting to use this innuendo for rhetorical effect rather than add any genuine historical fact to the discussion.


Felix is about 95% certain with what we know now to have had no actual physical attempt to kill R., but rather it was someone else in the house that night.  Even when long "safe" he assumed the full blame for a murder that while he conspired to prepare, he himself did not actually commit.

I'm sorry James1941, but your clearly and blatantly homophobic statements are not welcomed here. Period. "Our gilded lily" "he flees in terror, screaming like a teenage girl" "our painted little cross dresser and homosexual hero." "Being sensitive, stylish and artistic doesn't excuse his bad manners and his bloody intent."  Your agenda is clear here. For some reason you seem to condone Rasputin's debauchery with women, prositutes and yes, under age girls...these are not made up by the Okhrana, but were observed by hundreds of people...
for some reason, Rasputin is given a pass for his "morally bankrupt" debauchery, but Felix's own behavior is broacast in the most offensive, homophobic rhetoric possible.

If you can not tone done your clearly homophobic agenda, take it elsewhere. I won't allow it here.

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU,  SINCE YOU ASKED FOR ME TO MAKE IT SO IN PUBLIC??

FA
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 03:08:47 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline James1941

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Re: Your personal opinion on Felix Yusupov
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2007, 03:11:08 PM »
In answer to Johnny:
1. Derogatory adjectives are subjective to one's own interpretation as to what is drogatory or not. As I explained to Ashdean, the words cross dresser and homosexual are perfectly acceptable terms. I applied the adjectives to Felix Yusupov. Not to anyone else on this forum. If anyone finds them objectionable then so be it, but I do not apologize for my opinion of him.
2. Felix had the most common motive of all to be rid of his elder brother. Money. With his brother dead he was sole heir to the largest private fortune in Russia and the illustrious title that went with it. Very powerful motives. Why did Nicholas fight the duel? What were the circumstances that brought the fatal result to fruition? Felix was not an innocent bystander in these events. His fingerprints are everywhere. It is a matter that demands more research and exploration.
3. Whether the men who participated in the murder of Rasputin were professional, amateurs or just plain bumblers is totally immaterial. Whether Felix administered poison or not is totally immaterial. Whether Felix participated in the torture is totally immaterial. Whethr Felix fired into Rasputin as he claims he did, or whether he didn't is totally immateria.
What is material that he was present at, took part in, and conspired to bring about the murder. That makes him an accessory to murder. This is a criminal act in almost all civilized societies. There is enough evidence to hang Felix Yusupov higher than Haman (this is from the Bible).
4. Political necessity does not justify murder. That is why when the men who wanted Nicholas II out of power and a change in government began their coup d'etat they didn't kill Nicholas II or any of his ministers.
Besides, killing Rasputin led to nothing. It was a total failure if it's objective was to save the monarchy. Just a few short months after this brutal murder the monarchy was swept away in any case. Rasputin would have been swept away with it. Therefore his sadistic torture and execution were un-necessary. In fact it probably help expedite events rather than retard them. Please debate how such murder accomplished anything but the death of an man who had committed no crimes.
5. Rasputin's true involvement the politics of the last years of the Romanov dynasty and his true influence on matters are still evolving today, as new and unknown documents are being discovered. It's extent is certainly debatable. His murder is still morally reprehensible. The last time I looked "thou shall not commit murder" is still one of the ten commandments. I don't believe God put a disclaimer on it, "except if the person is engaged in political activity you don't approve of, then you can commit murder."
That Felix went around bragging about and never once indicated any doubt as to it shows his moral compass was a little off in more ways than one. This is why I don't like him.