Author Topic: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific papers  (Read 175013 times)

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Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #225 on: March 22, 2005, 07:37:28 PM »
So sorry to upset the apple cart.  I thought I was commenting on the DNA.  McNeal gave me a lengthy explanation on DNA. As to that, I will respond in detail within the next couple of weeks to a number of things said on this thread.  However, I do want to clarify what Helen said about McNeal's theory they survived.  I asked her that and she never maintained that - she left it up to her reader after she presented new evidence.  By the way - there is still no detailed refutation regarding her book - just rhetoric and cattiness it seems.  I still don't get it.

Thanks. See you on the other thread about the Secret Plot to Save the Tsar.  

Donald

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #226 on: March 24, 2005, 12:44:01 AM »
Quote
So sorry to upset the apple cart. †I thought I was commenting on the DNA. †McNeal gave me a lengthy explanation on DNA. As to that, I will respond in detail within the next couple of weeks to a number of things said on this thread. †However, I do want to clarify what Helen said about McNeal's theory they survived. †I asked her that and she never maintained that - she left it up to her reader after she presented new evidence. †By the way - there is still no detailed refutation regarding her book - just rhetoric and cattiness it seems. †I still don't get it.

Thanks. See you on the other thread about the Secret Plot to Save the Tsar. †

Donald


Donald, I don't get your continuing to bring up the McNeal book on this thread when you have been asked and instructed not to do so.  We all think it is fine to discuss the book, just not in this topic area. I don't see anything at all ambiguous about these requests, and you seem to be intelligent. So, I have to conclude that you are deliberately disregarding the instructions of the Forum Administrator and the requests of the other posters.

This is not "upsetting the apple cart". This is outright belligerence. Please consider this to be a final warning regarding this thread.

Offline Arkhimago

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #227 on: March 24, 2005, 02:46:27 AM »
Quote


Tikhon Kulikovsky had cooperated with a Russian researcher named Rogaev who sequenced his mtDNA.


Helen:

You may want to double-check your dates. Tikhon Kulikovskii most certainly did not "co-operate" with Rogaev or any other any DNA researcher, nor could he have as that Rogaev's tests were conducted in 1995 and Tikhon Nicholaevich died on Thursday, April 8th,1993.  While hospitalized during his final illness his third wife: Olga Pupinina ("Poupsie")...not to be confused with his mother Olga Alexandrovna...or his daughter Olga Nicholaevna, managed to drain a litre of blood from him which, against his steadfast last wishes, and unfortunately, quite legally, submitted for testing two years later in an appalling exercise of self-aggrandizement.
The further "give-away" to this calumny is the suffix appellation of "Romanov" after the Kulikovsky, which TNK had never allowed or desired in his lifetime but which madame has liberally appended to his moniker posthumously....(I would quite suspect that by now she may have even added herself a noble title as a prefix! ;))

Please find appended an English translation from "Pravolslavie Russie" confirming the former:

In 1995, at the request of the wife of one of the nephews of Nicholas II, Dr. Rogaev conducted a genetic analysis of a sample of blood from Tikhon Nikolaevich Kulikovsky-Romanov, a close relative of the tsar living in Canada. It seems he had the possibility of comparing the data of his research with the published data of the analysis by American and English laboratories which reportedly studied fragments of a femur from "skeleton number four," supposedly belonging to Emperor Nicholas II. Although he concluded that the results of the comparision "do not in principle contradict the conclusion," Evgeny Rogaev considers that the investigations so far conducted are insufficient.

Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #228 on: March 24, 2005, 05:14:06 AM »
Terribly sorry about the last portion of my post but the first portion is absolutely germaine. †You too sound intelligent - certainly intelligent enough not to speak to another adult in a God-like fashion.

I feel you are dangerously close to censorship on this site.  I was apologying and moving on but now I too will depart as I have seen other "intelligent" posters do.  

Perhaps you all (who is the "we" for whom you speak) should call yourselves a faternity or sorority not a public discussion forum.  I do not use profanity or rudeness and have addressed all thusly.  

By the way, I already have parents.  But they have never chastised me in such a way.  Even when I commented on their comments they have never attempted to inflect humiliation by labeling me belligerent.  They are too "intelligent" to attempt to manipulate me.

No need to lock a thread or threaten me.  (That also occurs to me to be odd behavior since the subject here is frequently Bolshevism/Communism and Autocracy.) As a result of these attitudes, you loose many competent posters.

Further, as my final thought, perhaps you or the "we" should  try a real scientific peer-review for some of these self-serving agenda written papers and posts.  I don't think you would be insulted just graded poorly.

Donald



Quote

Donald, I don't get your continuing to bring up the McNeal book on this thread when you have been asked and instructed not to do so. †We all think it is fine to discuss the book, just not in this topic area. I don't see anything at all ambiguous about these requests, and you seem to be intelligent. So, I have to conclude that you are deliberately disregarding the instructions of the Forum Administrator and the requests of the other posters.

This is not "upsetting the apple cart". This is outright belligerence. Please consider this to be a final warning regarding this thread.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by donaldreynolds »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #229 on: March 24, 2005, 07:59:24 AM »
Quote
Evgeny Rogaev considers that the investigations so far conducted are insufficient.


Hello Arkhimago,

Here is the Rogaev reference and abstract with his conclusions. The full paper is in Russian and can be found at a link I will provide below.

For all intents and purposes, whether Rogaev had Tikhon's Kulikovsky's express permission to run this test is irrelevant, he did acquire the sample legally, and this sample most certainly belonged to Mr Kulikovsky. Evidently, Rogaev was able to make some conclusions regarding these results (i.e. heteroplasmy), which were consistent with Peter Gill's (I have highlighted this in red).

Genetika. 1996 Dec;32(12):1690-2. Related Articles, Links †

[Comparison of mitochondrial DNA sequences of T.N. Kulikovskiń≠-Romanov, the nephew of Tsar Nikolań≠ II Romanov, with DNA from the putative remains of the Tsar]

[Article in Russian]

Rogaev EI, Ovchinnikov IV, Dzhorzh-Khislop P, Rogaeva EA.

University of Toronto, Canada.

Analysis of two polymorphic regions of mitochondrial DNA obtained from T. N. Kulikovskii-Romanov, the nephew of the last Tsar of the Russian Empire Nikolai II Romanov, was performed. The mitochondrial DNA sequences of T. N. Kulikovskii-Romanov and earlier reported DNA sequences obtained from the putative remains of Nikolai II showed almost complete coincidence except for a single nucleotide at the position 16169. At this position, C was found in mitochondrial DNA of T. N. Kulikovskii-Romanov, C/T in that from the putative remains of Nikolai II Romanov, and T in mitochondrial DNA from great great grandson and great great grand-daughter of Louise Hesse-Cassel. These data suggest independent mutations in the maternal lineage of Louise Hesse-Cassel's descendants and/or a mutation leading to a heteroplasmia in the lineage of Louise Hesse-Cassel.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

Full text in Russian: http://www.romanov-center.ural.org/stol/gen/rogaev1.htm

If anyone would like any clarification of Rogaev's abstract, or translation of some parts of his paper, Margarita and I will be more than happy to do it, since we both can read and understand Russian.

H  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Olga

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #230 on: March 24, 2005, 08:14:07 AM »
donaldreynolds, stop having such a hissy fit. You were simply asked to not to discuss McNeal's book as this is a thread for DNA evidence only. Grow up.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #231 on: March 24, 2005, 08:25:37 AM »
Quote
Further, as my final thought, perhaps you or the "we" should †try a real scientific peer-review for some of these self-serving agenda written papers and posts. †I don't think you would be insulted just graded poorly.


Dear Donald,

If you have any issues pertaining to our conclusions as far as the science goes, please post them and we will be more than happy to respond to them. Making general accusations about the "agenda" and quality of our work is not something that peer reviewers do. Normally, peer reviewers, will have specific questions or comments about issues that they want the authors to address. So far, the only issue you brought up here was about a book of non-scientific nature, that was very briefly mentioned in our article.

I can see that this book seems to be dear to your heart, but there is a thread dedicated expressly to it where it can be discussed (I see that you already have been there). Here, we would like to address serious scientific issues, since this is what this thread is specifically intended for.

So we will now look forward to your questions or comments about issues of scientific nature that you see as problematic in our article. Thanks!

Helen

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #232 on: March 24, 2005, 10:12:16 AM »
donaldreynolds:

You are totally over reacting, and frankly misunderstand what Lisa and I are saying. NO ONE is "censoring" you at all. You are quite free to discuss the Shay book in other threads. All I mean, which Lisa and others are upholding is that THIS thread is not for speculation or second hand information. This thread is solely for Scientific data.

Should YOU wish to engage in a peer-review analysis of Helen's work, we WELCOME it and will post is right here in this thread, 100% as you write it. Go ahead, please! Live up to your words.

It seems terribly petulant and childish to "leave the sandbox" because we have rules...

FA

Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #233 on: March 24, 2005, 11:54:30 PM »
Quote
Further, as my final thought, perhaps you or the "we" should †try a real scientific peer-review for some of these self-serving agenda written papers and posts. †I don't think you would be insulted just graded poorly.
 
Donald


Thank you for your assessment of our published paper.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to clarify all the scientific concerns you have with our paper?

We welcome your responses.

Margarita


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Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2005, 12:48:20 AM »
Quote
Tikhon Kulikovskii most certainly did not "co-operate" with Rogaev or any other any DNA researcher, nor could he have as that Rogaev's tests were conducted in 1995 and Tikhon Nicholaevich died on Thursday, April 8th,1993. †

The further "give-away" to this calumny is the suffix appellation of "Romanov" after the Kulikovsky, which TNK had never allowed or desired in his lifetime but which madame has liberally appended to his moniker posthumously.


1. According to The Bones of Contention in Road to Emmaus Vol IV, No 1 (# 12) 2003 an interview conducted with Olga Nikolaevna Kulikovsky- Romanoff (as stated) was published. This is one of numerous Russian Orthodox publications.

At p 26 it is stated:

... "It took me two years of searching through Russia, Europe and America to find a known analyst who I felt was reliable and disinterested enough to do the analysis properly. I found this person on Evgeny Regaev (incorrect spelling given here), who was one of the initiators of DNA testing in Russia. .... At the time I was looking for an analyst, he was a visiting professor at the University of Toronto .... The examination was done with fully verifiable legal procedure at the university lab before witnesses."

There are two legal issues which are relevant here.

1. The facility which stored Tikhon's frozen samples belong to that facility.

2. Express permission was sought and given by the next of kin.

All political or private discontentions concerning this procedure are not relevant to scientific enquiry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2005, 12:56:04 AM »
Quote
Please find appended an English translation from "Pravolslavie Russie"


In the interest of correct procedural enquiry, could you please provide the full citation of your exerpt including the author. A hyperlink to the Russian article will be acceptable.

Thank you.


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Offline lexi4

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2005, 01:05:07 AM »
Helen & Belochka
Thank you so much for posting your article. I have learned so much on this thread and have enjoyed every second of it. I am not a scientist, but you wrote in such a way that I could understand the mtDNA discussion. I will probably be re-reading this post because I am sure I didn't absorb it all in one sitting. This has been wonderful and the kind of discussion I was hoping to find when I joined the palace. Thank you.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #237 on: April 10, 2005, 01:17:52 PM »
Quote
Helen & Belochka
Thank you so much for posting your article. I have learned so much on this thread and have enjoyed every second of it. I am not a scientist, but you wrote in such a way that I could understand the mtDNA discussion. I will probably be re-reading this post because I am sure I didn't absorb it all in one sitting. This has been wonderful and the kind of discussion I was hoping to find when I joined the palace. Thank you.


You're welcome, Lexi, I am glad it was helpful. This was exactly our intent.

Helen

Offline lexi4

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #238 on: April 22, 2005, 10:47:10 PM »
DavidK,
You have done great work here. It took me quite awhile to read through it all. Thank you so much for your work.
I am however, disappointed that this thread could not stick with scientific literature as you originally proposed. Please do not misunderstand this, it is not your fault that the postings became emotional. I have only been here a short time and have learned which posts to skip when I am looking for facts. However, when you are trying to learn such posts can be very distractcing.
I also appreciate your candor in outlining your credentials. They are similar to mine.  :)
I am sure I will be reading and re-reading the information on this post for quite a while. I am a slow learner sometimes. Please keep up the good work and keep posts like this coming.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

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Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #239 on: April 27, 2005, 10:14:57 AM »
While not "Romanov" related, I thought this article from today's NY Times about DNA testing will address some of the issues about age of samples and reliability of DNA tests.

April 27, 2005

After 32 Years, Clothing Yields a DNA Key to Dozens of Rapes
By JULIA PRESTON

Aforgotten piece of evidence in a rape case from more than 30 years ago - a pair of women's underpants - has led to the DNA identification of a suspect in at least 24 other rapes and sexual assaults stretching from New York to Maryland, the authorities said yesterday.

The DNA matches have linked the man to a notorious series of unsolved rapes that terrorized Montgomery County in Maryland and drew comparisons with the rampage of the Boston Strangler. Manhattan authorities said the Maryland cases might be only the beginning, as other states run the suspect's samples through their own DNA databanks.


The man, identified by his lawyer as Fletcher Anderson Worrell, 58, was located in an Atlanta suburb late last year after he tried to buy a shotgun. The background check turned up two arrest warrants for him in New York City.

The warrants were issued after Mr. Worrell - also known as Clarence Williams - jumped bail in 1978 and vanished as he was facing retrials in two rape cases in New York.

Manhattan prosecutors said yesterday that as they were preparing to extradite Mr. Worrell from Georgia last fall, they looked in his old file. There, tucked away for 32 long years in a legal folder, they found one victim's underwear.

Using DNA technology that was barely imagined at the time of the crimes, the prosecutors said they conclusively linked Mr. Worrell to one of the rapes.

"It ought to send a chill through a lot of defendants to know that after 32 years you can still test for DNA," Robert M. Morgenthau, the Manhattan district attorney, said yesterday as he announced the breakthrough in the case.

But the discoveries did not stop there. The old DNA sample, and a fresh one from Mr. Worrell, were processed through a national DNA data bank compiled beginning in 1990. The samples linked Mr. Worrell to nine unsolved sexual assaults in Maryland and two in New Jersey, the prosecutors said.

Authorities in Maryland said they now believe that Mr. Williams is the man they called the Silver Spring rapist, who committed the nine assaults and at least 12 others between 1987 and 1991.

Paul Kalleberg, the deputy chief of the prosecutor's office in Morris County, New Jersey, confirmed yesterday that Mr. Worrell was now "potentially a prime suspect" in two unsolved 1993 sexual assault cases there.

Douglas F. Gansler, the Montgomery County state's attorney, recalled the "great concern, paralysis and fear" generated by the Silver Spring rapes years ago. "When you say 'Silver Spring rapist' around here, it's like saying 'Green River killer' or 'Boston Strangler' in other places," he said.

In the 1970's, Mr. Worrell was tried in two rapes, one in Manhattan and one in Queens. In the Manhattan case, a 25-year-old woman was raped on June 26, 1973, by a man who climbed at dawn through the window of her apartment in Chelsea. Cut marks on her neck showed that he had held a knife to her throat. Neighbors heard her scream.

The police, summoned by the neighbors, chased Mr. Worrell from the victim's building and arrested him. But the prosecutors lacked evidence, and the trial, in November 1975, resulted in a hung jury.
While he was out on bail during the Manhattan trial, he tried to rape a woman in Queens and she was shot during the attack, Mr. Morgenthau said yesterday. Mr. Worrell was convicted in 1975 of attempted murder and attempted rape. But the conviction was reversed on appeal because part of Mr. Worrell's statement to the police had been improperly admitted, the district attorney said.

Mr. Worrell had entered a guilty plea in the Manhattan rape after his conviction in Queens. But he later withdrew that plea after the Queens verdict collapsed. Released on bail in 1978, he dropped out of sight, Mr. Morgenthau said.

Michael F. Rubin, a lawyer who is representing Mr. Worrell in the New York rape cases, said, "My client has always maintained his innocence." Mr. Rubin said he learned only yesterday of the Silver Spring allegations.

Mr. Rubin said his client, who taught himself Arabic and took the Muslim name Umar Abdul Hakeem, had never tried to hide from the authorities. For a decade after 1993, Mr. Worrell worked in Cairo as a translator, Mr. Rubin said.

He had opened bank accounts and utilities contracts under the name Anderson Worrell in Atlanta, where he was living when he was arrested, Mr. Rubin said. "He was a well-respected member of the Muslim community," the lawyer said. "This is not fugitive behavior."

Mr. Rubin said Mr. Worrell had been arrested once since he left New York, on a 1977 burglary charge in Washington.

He was committed to a psychiatric hospital after it was determined that he was not competent to stand trial because of a personality disorder, the lawyer said.

Mr. Rubin said that Mr. Worrell, who is divorced and has two grown children, tried to buy a shotgun in DeKalb County in Georgia by presenting his given name and Social Security number.

"He did not ever believe that he was the subject of those New York warrants," Mr. Rubin said.

Mr. Morgenthau said the victim of the Manhattan rape, who no longer lives in New York, is still available to testify in a new trial.

The victim, when told of the DNA matches identifying the man she knew as Clarence Williams, "was, number one, upset, but I think she was also extremely grateful," Mr. Morgenthau said.

Mr. Worrell was taken to New York in October 2004 and is currently being held without bail on Rikers Island. He heard of the new evidence against him in State Supreme Court in Manhattan yesterday. At the hearing, prosecutors requested court authorization to take new DNA samples from Mr. Worrell, Mr. Rubin said.

Lt. Philip Raum, of the Police Department in Montgomery County, who was one of the two chief investigators of the Silver Spring rapes, said yesterday that at least nine assaults had been linked through DNA to Mr. Worrell, known there as Clarence Williams. The Silver Spring cases involve 21 unsolved assaults and attempted assaults.

In a telephone interview, Lieutenant Raum said he had called the victims, and five had readily agreed to testify at a trial. He said Montgomery County police would issue a search warrant to obtain more DNA from Mr. Worrell in a few days.

He said officers had located two addresses in Silver Spring and another in Washington where Mr. Worrell lived.

From 1987, when the rapes began, to 1991, when they stopped, dozens of investigators were on the trail of the Silver Spring rapist, who broke in to single-family homes and apartments at night and assaulted women.

"We felt confident that this guy would make a mistake and we would get him," Lieutenant Raum said. "Too bad it wasn't 14 years ago."

Elizabeth Olson contributed reporting from Maryland for this article.