Franziska Schanzkowska and Grossman

Agreed on both counts...

     Why are there no other records of this 'mystery trip to Russia' other than the memories of a few people who would have been either children at the time or certainly not in the know of the military and political situation durring the war!? Why would anyone trust the word of a woman who we know was not Anastasiawhen she said that "X" happened? Where are the train tickets/ faked passport/ military evidence. EVIDENCE?
     Michael any serious historian would be able to look for more evidence than these fantastic tales. I need documented proof - not more stories out of school!

My doubts about you are returning - and that saddens me.

rskkiya

Rskkiya,

Pardon me, but you asked me proof.  Would a Grand Duke on a secret mission for peace have train tickets
into enemy territory??? Passport? Come on now Rskkiya, I just provided you with the testimony of Prince Dimitry Galitzin, and that the German Crown Princess was aware of the proposed visit.

Viktoria Luise, the Kaiser's daughter did not know or have any first hand evidence of the visit, but none the less she writes:  " I personally know of no one who has any evidence of the Grand Duke's trip to St. Petersburg, (Tsarskoe Selo), I neither heard anything about it from my father, I do know a proposal to send a prince over there (Russia) was discussed, and also with the military commanders, but Ludendorff was strictly against it.  So IF such a step had been taken, it was done without the knowledge of the High Command.  That would explain why my Father had wanted the strictest secrecy, and it would also explain the Grand Duke's absolute silence, too, particularly as regards his own family.  They certainly never got the slightest indication from him."

It was well known that Ernie was committed to bringing about a seperate peace between Russia & Germany,
who better to send, than the Empress's brother??

But train tickets and passports on a secret mission in the time of war....Rskkiya....come on now.

    Why are there no other records of this 'mystery trip to Russia' other than the memories of a few people who would have been either children at the time or certainly not in the know of the military and political situation durring the war!? Why would anyone trust the word of a woman who we know was not Anastasiawhen she said that "X" happened? Where are the train tickets/ faked passport/ military evidence. EVIDENCE?
      Michael any serious historian would be able to look for more evidence than these fantastic tales. I need documented proof - not more stories out of school!

My doubts about you are returning - and that saddens me.

rskkiya

I do know from a couple of Greg's posts that they are researching this for the book on Ernie.  He would not say what they had found as of yet.  But this story is being looked at for the forthcoming bio of him.  

Not sure what to think about this story.  If there were ANY Russian records to corroborate the story it would be an amazing find...

I also don't think that it is out of the realm of probability.
Who else would have been as perfect a candidate as Ernie?    

Even though Viktoria Luise's statements doesn't confirm it, it also states that a this plan was discussed, and if her father did proceed with it, it would have been under the highest level of secrecy.    

Who else would have been allowed in Russia by the Tsar and Tsarina at a a time of war from the enemy camp, and for what other reason?

I hope Greg is able to come to some conclusion in his upcoming book on Ernie.  

Rskkiya,

Pardon me, but you asked me proof.  Would a Grand Duke on a secret mission for peace have train tickets
into enemy territory??? Passport? Come on now Rskkiya, I just provided you with the testimony of Prince Dimitry Galitzin, and that the German Crown Princess was aware of the proposed visit.

Viktoria Luise, the Kaiser's daughter did not know or have any first hand evidence of the visit, but none the less she writes:  " I personally know of no one who has any evidence of the Grand Duke's trip to St. Petersburg, (Tsarskoe Selo), I neither heard anything about it from my father, I do know a proposal to send a prince over there (Russia) was discussed, and also with the military commanders, but Ludendorff was strictly against it.  So IF such a step had been taken, it was done without the knowledge of the High Command.  That would explain why my Father had wanted the strictest secrecy, and it would also explain the Grand Duke's absolute silence, too, particularly as regards his own family.  They certainly never got the slightest indication from him."

It was well known that Ernie was committed to bringing about a seperate peace between Russia & Germany,
who better to send, than the Empress's brother??

But train tickets and passports on a secret mission in the time of war....Rskkiya....come on now.

Michael,
Just a quick question and this is sincere. What as the purpose of the trip? What did he hope to accomplish? And, wouldn't it have been safe by the time AA made the statement for him to admit the trip?

Rskkiya,

Pardon me, but you asked me proof.  Would a Grand Duke on a secret mission for peace have train tickets
into enemy territory??? Passport? Come on now Rskkiya, I just provided you with the testimony of Prince Dimitry Galitzin, and that the German Crown Princess was aware of the proposed visit.

Viktoria Luise, the Kaiser's daughter did not know or have any first hand evidence of the visit, but none the less she writes:  " I personally know of no one who has any evidence of the Grand Duke's trip to St. Petersburg, (Tsarskoe Selo), I neither heard anything about it from my father, I do know a proposal to send a prince over there (Russia) was discussed, and also with the military commanders, but Ludendorff was strictly against it.  So IF such a step had been taken, it was done without the knowledge of the High Command.  That would explain why my Father had wanted the strictest secrecy, and it would also explain the Grand Duke's absolute silence, too, particularly as regards his own family.  They certainly never got the slightest indication from him."

It was well known that Ernie was committed to bringing about a seperate peace between Russia & Germany,
who better to send, than the Empress's brother??

But train tickets and passports on a secret mission in the time of war....Rskkiya....come on now.

Michael
   I will wait for more documentation rather than run out on a limb as any historian (hint) ought to do. Don't make too much out of such a great deal of speculation. You still have nothing but conjecture -- If Mr. King finds something viable then I will certainly consider it, but until then your points are without merit.

rskkiya

Rskkiya again there are statements made by Crown Princess Cecilie Of Prussia/Germany.

Another is Prince Dimitry Galitzin who testified at the trial, and had actually seen GD Ernie of Hesse at Tsarskoe during 1916.  (See "Riddle of Anna Anderson by Peter Kurth pgs 344-348)

The Grand Duke's letters home to his wife Onor for that period in the spring of 1916 which bore actual postmarks were grounds for suspicion, as he regularly sent his letters home by courier.

Riddle Of Anna Anderson Pg 354, from the testimony of Prince Ferdinand of Schonaich-Carolaith, stepson of the Kaiser, (admittedly 2nd hand & not the best source) who stated the Kaiser spoke of the 1916 Peace Mission of The Grand Duke of Hesse.

I am sure there is more proof, statements regarding this trip.    However you asked for proof, Annie the Omnipresent says there was absolutely no proof, and here I have presented it to you.

Michael

All this is again hearsay. CP Cecilie was a bit off after the war, she even believed AA was AN (and they had not seen each other that much, Cecilie was 15  years older than AN and was married and moved to Germany when AN was only 3! Her visits later did not include events where children were present, and she did not come after 1913, when AN was only 12. So it's unlikely she could have accurately recognized her as a grown woman!) There is no way to prove this trip.

Michael, though you continue to profess that you do not believe AA was AN, little things pop up in your posts that make me wonder. For example, why do you think, (assuming Ernie made the trip, which is in doubt) that he would want AA shut up so she wouldn't tell, if she weren't Anastasia, because if she weren't, she wouldn't have known! So if you think he was desperate to discount AA's claim you must think he thought AA was AN and surely he didn't, being close kin he could tell on first sight I'm sure. But I wonder if YOU might be thinking in the back of your mind she was, even if you don't admit it,  or why would you think this?

I'm not Michael, but I had posted my theory on why Ernie would want to shut up AA--even though he may not have believed her to be AN.

Of course, this is all dependent on whether he made the trip to Tsarskoe Selo at all.  

BUT, if he had....

My theory on this is that no matter who the girl was claiming to be his niece (and I do believe that Ernie was aware AA wasn't Anastasia--otherwise he would be truly detestable to reject his niece) Ernie would want to discredit her because of the story that he had been in Russia in 1916.  If someone were to believe that she was Anastasia and believe her story, then he stood to lose a lot.  He had a lot at stake.  So by assigning an identity to her through the use of the PI, he was able to diffuse her story of his trip--IE, if she was a con artist then her stories were lies.  

Just my view.

Rskkiya, do as you wish, you asked me to provide you with evidence of the trip, I have provided the evidence I have, and I believe the trip was possible.  You know Rskkiya  ANY RESPONSIBLE historian OUGHT to investigate ALL of the possibilities, before ruling them out.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine...

Lexi,

The purpose of the trip was the basis for a negotiation of a seperate peace between Russia & Germany.  Who better among the German Princes, than the brother of
the Empress Consort of Russia, then to make the trip
and present the issue to the Emperor & Empress.

The Kaiser's daughter, Viktoria Luise spoke of this and knew that there were plans to send a German Prince, however, she never knew who it was or when the went,  but that the complete secrecy of the mission was in order as the German High Command, & Ludendorff may have been against it.

[history!]

All this is again hearsay. CP Cecilie was a bit off after the war, she even believed AA was AN (and they had not seen each other that much, Cecilie was 15  years older than AN and was married and moved to Germany when AN was only 3! Her visits later did not include events where children were present, and she did not come after 1913, when AN was only 12. So it's unlikely she could have accurately recognized her as a grown woman!) There is no way to prove this trip.

Annie!
   Now at last I understand why Michael has such a difficult time conversing with you...Your posts are rational and sensible and there is logic to your points!  
    I am not suggesting that Denise or Michael are irrational but there is more "What if" in their speculation than fact as far as I have noticed, and while speculation is all well and good it is not history!
    Something may come out of all of this -- but so far so many people are far too eager and impatient. Please friends -Don't present a theory without some more documentable evidence - lest you end up looking very silly.
   
       An opinion ( I like pears ) is not a historical theory (Pears are responsible for all significant  modern scientific developements and pear eaters are superior scholars!) LOL  

rskkiya

Isn't it strange how ANYONE who disagrees with Annie or her preconceived ideas, living or dead gets referred to as "a bit off".....

Rskkiya, I am just dying laughing here....keep it up..

Isn't it strange how ANYONE who disagrees with Annie or her preconceived ideas, living or dead gets referred to as "a bit off".....

Can't you just stop your whining against Annie?  It's getting really old.  You both have your own opinions, good, whatever.  Stop being so nasty to other people, readers of this thread like myself are getting sick of it.  Is DNA evidence some "preconceived idea," as you stated it?  I'm quite honestly shocked people who seem to understand the concept don't get that the DNA evidence makes it all a closed case.  Just to clarify I'm not trying to be snarky or nasty...I'm getting sick of the "Annie this, Annie that". We're talking about Anna Anderson/Franciska/whoever the heck ya'll think she was...not bashing someone else on this board.  :-/