Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3  (Read 44004 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #285 on: July 09, 2007, 05:56:06 PM »

I have already answered  Annie's questions  and explain why I try to make sure her  misinformation doesn't go unnoticed.

Bear, I even gave you sources this time! Or is anything that hurts AA's case 'misinformation' to you?

*goes to look for headbanging smilie, he will return if this persists*

 

Quote
I do believe the family of FS did have a funeral for FS,  whic seems to me they would not have done so had they believed AA was FS.   Or,  am  I wrong on this assumption?


AGRBear

I'd say you're assuming. I've never heard or seen anything about it.

Hey, I just thought about something..if FS was thought to be dead, and then showed up alive, think of the IRONY! So everyone's going on about Anastasia being thought dead and then showing up alive, but actually that happened to FS, but she was pretending to be Anastasia! So it all came full circle, and there was a miraculous return from the dead, but it was the wrong girl, and it still ended with the same person- FS.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:58:46 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #286 on: July 10, 2007, 10:33:14 AM »
Yes,  Annie,  you did give 2 sources.   One about Kapp's putsch which lasted  FOUR DAYS  and inflatation.     

If you had read  about Kapp's putsch in the first place you would have realized that a percentage of the Berlin police were part of the rebellion but not because of Kapp's  politics but because the Allies had wanted to disband them  because  the Allies didn't want  a military police.   This lasted FOUR DAYS.   When it was over and sides got togather,  the majority were happy campers.  This addedd 14,000 men  who were no longer  acting like  peace keepers,  they became policeman for the people.   In other words,  they became part of the group in dealt with crime,  MISSING PERSONS,  etc. etc. .

There really is no need to tear down the entire Weimer Republic's  and Greater Berlin's Police just  to prove the assumption they were  ALL incompetent  from 1918 to 1932 just to prove  AA was FS.

My original question is a simple one:  Was FS Murdered By Grossmann?   The police and the courts thought she was with the evidence they  had.    If   FS was AA then it's obvious they made a mistake.   If  the police and the courts were right,  and  FS was murdered,  then who was AA?   [There is a thread for this question.]

I don't care where the truth take me,  I'm just enjoying the journey.

AGRBear



 

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #287 on: July 10, 2007, 02:05:08 PM »
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17. Afterward, there were lots of other bigger, more important problems than FS. That is the point I've ALWAYS been trying to make, that because of the turmoil in the city, and the involvement of the police, not enough time and attention was available to make the connection between AA and FS and that's why her case slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation, and her charade got its chance for later 'success.' Perhaps if there had been no coup at that time, they may have had more time to devote to something less important like her, but they didn't. It is true there was much upheval and inflation from 1919 thru 1923, proving Berlin was not always the best and most stable place to be living at that time, and how it did turn out to be a good place to disappear, if you wanted to hide or change your identity forever.

Bear, you always speak of finding the truth, but you circumvent it and avoid what's right under your nose all the time. I don't think you really want to find it, or you will keep looking until you find the answers you want to find and not the real ones. Otherwise, you'd accept the DNA that found AA to be FS with 99.9% certainty. The answer to the question is, once and for all, NO, FS was not murdered by Grossman.

ferrymansdaughter

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #288 on: July 11, 2007, 06:26:11 AM »
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17.

Where did you get this date of 9 March from?  I always understood that while AA was fished out of the canal on 17 Feb, FS was REPORTED missing sometimes around end Feb/early March.  I understood there was a great deal of confusion over the date she was reported as missing and also how long it was between her actually going missing and being reported.  Even Doris Wingender  didn't seem to know how long it was before  they went to the police.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #289 on: July 11, 2007, 07:09:14 AM »
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17.

Where did you get this date of 9 March from?  I always understood that while AA was fished out of the canal on 17 Feb, FS was REPORTED missing sometimes around end Feb/early March.  I understood there was a great deal of confusion over the date she was reported as missing and also how long it was between her actually going missing and being reported.  Even Doris Wingender  didn't seem to know how long it was before  they went to the police.

From someone who is very knowledgeable on the AA case, and who is a very strong supporter, who sent me dozens of private messages with details in them. One of the things he was adament about was that FS disappeared on March 9 'for parts unknown.' He believes AA is AN and I don't, but he did several times give the date FS was reported missing to the police as March 9.

Offline dmitri

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #290 on: July 11, 2007, 08:20:28 AM »
This whole thread is ridiculous.

Offline Lemur

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #291 on: July 11, 2007, 10:00:37 AM »
Yes it is. Maybe it should be locked away since we know the answer to the question and it's only turning into more wild speculation that will never end. Annie you should just ignore the ravings and maybe they'll go away. No one pays any attention to such nonsense anyway.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 10:05:42 AM by Lemur »

ferrymansdaughter

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #292 on: July 11, 2007, 12:06:00 PM »
[

From someone who is very knowledgeable on the AA case, and who is a very strong supporter, who sent me dozens of private messages with details in them. One of the things he was adament about was that FS disappeared on March 9 'for parts unknown.' He believes AA is AN and I don't, but he did several times give the date FS was reported missing to the police as March 9.

Thank you.   Is this linked to the man (can't remember his name) who said Francizka told him she was going to work in Bedford Road in London?

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #293 on: July 11, 2007, 12:16:58 PM »
No I think it was just the boarding house, but the guy claimed he possessed a copy of some report of her going missing and it was dated March 9, 1920.

And Lemur and Dmitri, I know you're right, I am wasting my time.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #294 on: July 13, 2007, 11:46:25 AM »
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17. Afterward, there were lots of other bigger, more important problems than FS. That is the point I've ALWAYS been trying to make, that because of the turmoil in the city, and the involvement of the police, not enough time and attention was available to make the connection between AA and FS and that's why her case slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation, and her charade got its chance for later 'success.' Perhaps if there had been no coup at that time, they may have had more time to devote to something less important like her, but they didn't. It is true there was much upheval and inflation from 1919 thru 1923, proving Berlin was not always the best and most stable place to be living at that time, and how it did turn out to be a good place to disappear, if you wanted to hide or change your identity forever.

But the case itself didn't slip through any kind of cracks.  And,  this is what I'm trying to convey.  The police did make an active search.  There are records and information about  their search.   So,  telling me that the police assigned to  her case  weren't interested  isn't true.  Perhaps the policemen  didn't extend far enough because they didn't contact  the other missing girl's family,  which was FS'  family,  from Posen and bring a member of FS'  family to Berlin as the police had the other missing girl's family.   

AGRBear



 
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #295 on: July 13, 2007, 01:03:04 PM »
Oh I disagree, it did fall through the cracks in the early days. Otherwise the connection between AA and FS wouldn't have been hard to make. It sure wasn't for Ernie's detective/PI. Just today I read something on another forum, (a forum which I don't think can or should be linked here) posted by Mr. Kurth himself, which admitted that in 1940 the Berlin Police, transferring the case to Hannover where AA then lived, did finally officially agree with the IDing of AA as FS as found by Uncle Ernie's Count Hardenberg ("Hofmarschall")(they had many years earlier also given Ernie's men access to the records, and some of them, including fingerprints, are allegedly still in Darmstadt.) Even though Kurth referred to the guy who did it, Heinz Drescher, as a 'hapless sap', and left heavily loaded insinuations that the Berlin police were somehow influenced by the deposed royalty, the quote was that they finally 'went along with the identification' and agreed with Darmstadt that AA was indeed FS. All conspiracy theories aside, that is one big slamming door on the Grossman theory, if you ask me.

The real truth in this obviously seems to be that the police did NOT have the time, resources or possibly even interest to solve the case when it first came up, but Ernie, who had a personal interest in proving an imposter was not his neice, did have the time, resources and interest to do everything he could to find an answer, was able to do just that and succeeded where the police had failed. In 1940, the Berlin police, via Darmstadt and Hannover, finally agreed with Darmstadt's investigation results and officially identified AA as FS.

I realize that there will be some who will write this off as some kind of coverup, but remember that Ernie and most of his family had died in 1937, so there was no one left to 'pay off' anyone.;)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 01:12:16 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #296 on: July 13, 2007, 02:42:16 PM »
here is the quote by Peter Kurth that I found explaining how the Berlin police did eventually go along with Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS and sign documents to that effect. If he, or the mods here, have any problem wth this being here I do understand it may be deleted. But for now, for info purposes on this topic:

the Berlin police caved in in 1926-1927 & sent all their files on A. to Count Hardenberg, Uncle Ernie's "Hofmarschall," who was working with Gilliard at that time to "expose" her (so much for monarchy meaning nothing after 1918!) -- the Berlin police themselves had reached no formal conclusion or determination about AA's actual identity, still calling her "the unknown Russian woman" -- anyway, a TERRIBLY polite conversation ensued once Darmstadt decided to take it into their own hands, and really this was AWFULLY irregular, because Darmstadt (Hesse) had no legal jurisdiction whatsover on the matter (AA having never lived anywhere near Darmstadt). When you read the correspondence about this, the first thing you notice is the utter slavishness of the Berlin authorities toward royalty, deposed or not -- and even then, they refused to put their imprimatur onto Darmstadt's "conclusions." "WE did not decide that she is FS -- this information came to us from the Hofmarschall of the grand-ducal court," etc. It wasn't till 1940, at least, that the Berlin authorities decided to give it all over to the police in *Hannover,* where AA was then living. Some hapless sap at Berlin police headquarters (Heinz Drescher), later testified that indeed, in the Nazi era, they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's "identification," and said that he had signed certain documents saying that "the identity has been established."

So officially the Berlin police did go along with the conclusion that AA was FS. This is the nail in the coffin for the Grossman theory, don't you think?

Offline dmitri

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #297 on: July 13, 2007, 05:25:58 PM »
The identity of AA has never been in doubt. She was a total fraud from beginning to end. What a nutter she was.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #298 on: July 14, 2007, 01:20:36 PM »
This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #299 on: July 14, 2007, 01:24:14 PM »
This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear

But don't you see, there is evidence that the police agreed with Ernie's ID of AA as FS, meaning not only was AA FS, but that FS wasn't murdered by Grossman. Case closed.