Author Topic: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants  (Read 47510 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2005, 09:07:08 AM »
I have too much faith in the hard-heartedness of the Bolshie leadership who wanted the entire group gone...and in the determination of the executioners...

PS...If one wishes to do a terrible deed...do it in..."THE NAME OF THE PEOPLE"...then silly Lefties around the Globe will defend the legitimacy of ones actions... ::)

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2005, 04:37:05 PM »
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Thank you, that was my intention... No I don't believe in any survivors. Sorry for the confusion


Oh, ok, sorry for jumping all over you. :)

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2005, 05:06:09 PM »
No survivors of that night. However I do believe that maybe some members of the family could have still been(barely) alive as they were taken out of Ipatiev House, but would have died from injuries and exposure before the night was through.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2005, 06:32:15 PM »
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No one could have survived. When the Bolsheviks couldn't shoot any more, because the room had filled up with smoke, they resorted to bayonets. When the bayonets didn't work, they resorted to rifle butts. The condition of the bones that were found in Pig's Meadow was so pitiable - the facial bones alone completely smashed - that one of the Russian forensic experts who helped exhume them said she was made physically ill by the sight. She had never before seen human remains that had sustained such extensive damage.

So I find it impossible to believe that any member of the IF could have left the Ipatiev House alive. The fact that two skeletons are missing means nothing in the larger historical sense, because history is not a court of law and the principle of "beyond reasonable doubt" doesn't apply. Historians consider all the evidence and come up with the solution they find that best fits the facts at hand. 99% of professional historians have concluded that all the Romanovs died on the night of July 16-17, 1918. Having carefully examined this case from all angles, I have to agree with them.  


If a person believes all the information that Yurovsky and the other CHEKA, Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets and later the communists and KGB about the events which occured in the Ipatiev House on the night of 16/17 July 1918, then is understandable that you could think there can be no doubt about survivors.   HOWEVER,  not all of us believe what those involved have told us.  Why?  Because everything they told us isn't true.  One important example: There is the fact that two bodies are missing from the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  Yurovsky tells us the two missing bodies were burn and buried near the mass grave.  No grave with the two missing bodies have been found in Pig's Meadow.  Today we have all kinds of new methods to discover old graves in the type of grave we're told exists.   So,  if Yurovsky and the others are not telling us the truth about the two missing bodies,  how can we view the rest of their story as truth or partly true?  Yes,  we know that nine bodies were found in the mass grave.   Another problem rises when it is asked as to when these bodies were buried?  We don't know when these bodies were buried.  There is evidence that this grave was distrubed at least two times [maybe more] and even opened up enough so some skulls and bones were removed at least in one of these disturbances.   To add to this mix, there are not enough bones for a grave which held nine bodies.  So, my thoughts are, if we don't know what happen that night then how can we know if Alexei and Anastasia/ Maria were executed and buried elsewhere or escaped.

Also, we don't know if the damages to head and bodies of the nine vicitims occured as they were being executed or after.  According to Yurovsky, if we are to believe his story in part, the nine were dead before they used the butts of their rifles to smash the skulls to prevent them from being reconized.  So,  in truth, we have no idea how or what killed them.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Marialana

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2005, 06:48:38 PM »
My personal belief is that no one survived that night. There are always questions and mysteries which surround a lot of events, and this is no doubt one of them. I'd like to believe that there was some chance that one of those children survived. Still, given the circumstances of that evening and the sheer brutality of what went on in that basement, my heart tells me that there was just no possible way.

Offline Merrique

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2005, 06:50:13 PM »
I agree with FA and many others.I don't think anyone survived that night.The execution and the treatment of the bodies afterwards shows me the sheer hatred that these people felt towards the Romanovs.The absense of two bodies doesn't mean survival.It could be after this long being buried in the ground that there is nothing left to find.

Eventhough I wish someone could have survived,I really doubt that anyone did.
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2005, 06:54:10 PM »
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Take what Elisabeth said, and add the fact that there was only one time at all when the 2 bodies could have gone missing (see FOTR, Greg and Penny did a super job of really nailing down the timeline). It was miles out into the Siberian forest, very few people around. Alexei could never have survived even moderate injury given the BEST medical care then. Given virtually zero medical care at that place and time, zero possibliltity of survival. As for a missing Grand Duchess, clearly at least injured by stabbing, possibly a bullet, beatings for sure and trauma for being manhandled as a corpse, WHO could have provided A) decent medical care B) a secure and secret hiding place C) Food, clothing, bathing etc. D) kept TOTALLY secret from both the WHITES who came in later (and would have been THRILLED to have a GD alive) or the Bolsheviks (who would have been THRILLED to kill her and her saviors on the spot) E) During a time when everyone was denouncing their neighbors in a society where EVERYONE knew all the business of their neighbors F) nursing her back to health G) secretly getting her OUT  of Bolshevik controlled Russia H) hiding her for still more years without ANYONE hearing about her or attempting to contact her family.

Follow the logical baby-steps of any "suvivor" story. The infinitely small possiblity of each step must be multiplied by the number of steps to reach the genuine "probability" factor of being possible. You get a number so hugely small it is zero.

FA


Again, it depends what you believe as to what happen that night.  Therefore, if some call the "logical baby-steps"  are based on false information given to us by Yurovsky, CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Moscow Soviets, communists and KGB, then we'd have to step back and take a different look.  And,  I call this looking outside the box where FA and Elisabeth are because they find it comfortable with the information they have.

FA and Elisabeth may never have to get out of their box and they may be right but I have and will continue to have doubts until the two missing bodies are found.

Was someone executed in the Ipatiev House that night?  It is possible that 5 Letts were murdered and it was their bodies taken to the Four Brother's mine.  These bodies were found by the early White investigators but not mention in Sokolov's published works.

And, remember, some of the early investigators thought the execution was staged.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2005, 08:44:00 PM »
AGRBear is right, I guess, you have to decide what you believe. Some things are plausible and others are just silly.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2005, 07:11:15 AM »
I agree that everyone should examine the case for themselves, weighing all the evidence pro and con for survival, before making up their minds. Play investigator and see if you can come up with the most logical solution for the mystery at hand. This is what I did and it sharpened my wits considerably! I reread all the primary sources I could get my hands on, as well as Nicholas and Alexandra's last diaries, The File on the Tsar, The Fall of the Romanovs and The Fate of the Romanovs. I worked out my own timeline - day to day, hour by hour. In the end - many weeks if not months later - I came to the conclusion that no one could have survived the Ekaterinburg murders.

Now, if AGR Bear wants to believe that such a long and intensive intellectual process is still a matter of thinking "inside the box" then that is her right. But I want to emphasize here that I started out with a completely open mind. I love a good historical mystery as much as the next person. And who knows, maybe someday one of our members in the Forum will find the missing grave and finally lay this particular historical mystery to rest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline RichC

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2005, 09:12:08 AM »
I've been on vacation for a while, and haven't posted much, but I'm glad this thread was started.  It's interesting to see that most, so far, think they all died that night.  I agree, of course, that they all died that night, but I held out hope, when I was a child, that Anna Anderson might have been the real McCoy.

But no serious scholar, either before or after the discovery of the bones in the early 1990's, ever believed anybody escaped.  (I'll be happy to stand corrected if someone disagrees.)

I've read a number of posts where people have said NAOTMA wouldn't be so popular today if they hadn't all been shot and I agree with that too.  

I've wondered if all the hoping and praying that Anastasia escaped has more to do with the hope that at least one of the executioners retained some shread of human dignity which made him save her--that even the most violent of individuals, somewhere deep down, still had a heart and felt sorry for her.  The idea of an entire family being wiped out all at once has such a deep visceral effect on people; frightening them that other individuals could do such a thing.  I know it frightens me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

Offline etonexile

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2005, 11:20:36 AM »
The idea that people could be so brutish to others...and especially to such lovely,charming,polite folk as the IF...is very sad and disgusting....but this is all too often how the world is......

Somewhere I had read an analysis that by 1918 the well-disciplined flower of Russian manhood had pretty much been killed off in the War...and the last soldiers were wild kids and prison riff-raff....seems logical.... ::)

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2005, 12:46:16 PM »
It does seem logical, actually.

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2005, 12:49:38 PM »
I've been reflecting on this issue.  

I do not personally seem to care whether anyone survived, in terms of wishing that one or more did.

I was convinced that AA was AN, based on Kurth's book.

I do assume that the dna is valid, until proven otherwise.

I think.......that for me, it is all about not wanting the story to end.  So exploring FS, AA, and other issues related to the executions keeps the story going.  

And that's ok.  It's a great story!

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2005, 01:02:00 PM »
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I was convinced that AA was AN, based on Kurth's book.
 
I do assume that the dna is valid, until proven otherwise.



So which overpowers the other? According to DNA, AA wasn't AN.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2005, 06:07:25 PM »
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...[in part[....

Now, if AGR Bear wants to believe that such a long and intensive intellectual process is still a matter of thinking "inside the box" then that is her right. But I want to emphasize here that I started out with a completely open mind. I love a good historical mystery as much as the next person. And who knows, maybe someday one of our members in the Forum will find the missing grave and finally lay this particular historical mystery to rest.


Please do not misunderstand.  I did not say you didn't go through an intellectual process from "inside the box".   If I gave that impression, I'm sorry.

What I am suggesting for those who have not gone through your own intellectual process of gathering as much information as you can then, please,  do so, before you jump into the box where Elisabeth and others are at this time.  It is indeed an adventure that will present to you so many things such as history of a huge country, it's people as well as the Romanovs and so many many others.

Quote

... [ in part].....

I agree that everyone should examine the case for themselves, weighing all the evidence pro and con for survival, before making up their minds. Play investigator and see if you can come up with the most logical solution for the mystery at hand. This is what I did and it sharpened my wits considerably! I reread all the primary sources I could get my hands on, as well as Nicholas and Alexandra's last diaries, The File on the Tsar, The Fall of the Romanovs and The Fate of the Romanovs. I worked out my own timeline - day to day, hour by hour. In the end - many weeks if not months later - I came to the conclusion that no one could have survived the Ekaterinburg murders.


Or you will come to your own conclusion which may be completely different than anyone who has posted thus far.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152