Author Topic: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants  (Read 48368 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2005, 11:57:46 AM »
Louis_Charles:  >>And we must all be prepared to examine any evidence with an open mind. <<

Sounds good to me  ;D

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Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2005, 10:33:23 PM »
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Take what Elisabeth said, and add the fact that there was only one time at all when the 2 bodies could have gone missing (see FOTR, Greg and Penny did a super job of really nailing down the timeline). It was miles out into the Siberian forest, very few people around. Alexei could never have survived even moderate injury given the BEST medical care then. Given virtually zero medical care at that place and time, zero possibliltity of survival. As for a missing Grand Duchess, clearly at least injured by stabbing, possibly a bullet, beatings for sure and trauma for being manhandled as a corpse, WHO could have provided A) decent medical care B) a secure and secret hiding place C) Food, clothing, bathing etc. D) kept TOTALLY secret from both the WHITES who came in later (and would have been THRILLED to have a GD alive) or the Bolsheviks (who would have been THRILLED to kill her and her saviors on the spot) E) During a time when everyone was denouncing their neighbors in a society where EVERYONE knew all the business of their neighbors F) nursing her back to health G) secretly getting her OUT  of Bolshevik controlled Russia H) hiding her for still more years without ANYONE hearing about her or attempting to contact her family.

Follow the logical baby-steps of any "suvivor" story. The infinitely small possiblity of each step must be multiplied by the number of steps to reach the genuine "probability" factor of being possible. You get a number so hugely small it is zero.

FA



About people who would have cared for her- I can only think of one place. The convent that sent eggs for the tsarevich. And they never would have had the chance to save them.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2005, 12:16:19 PM »
I think there are too many missing puzzle pieces to the events such as:  (1) who actually ordered the executed Nicholas II and the others,  (2) to the various buriels of the nine in the mass grave and  (3) the missing grave of the two missing children of Nicholas II and quite possibly a 12th victim....


How many of you are aware of this???

p. 355, FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by  King and Wilson:
>>Sokolov may have genuinely believed that the Romanovs were alll dead.. There certainly was circumstanial evidence that the family had been killed...<< >>..His final, published result were heavily editied to the extent that he removed contradictory passages in many of the statements made by the four captured Ipatiev House guards -- Medvedev, Yakimov, Letemin and Proskuryakov...<<

Makes me wonder how many other "contradictory passages" have been left out in other testimonies?

I'm not sure I'd go as far to say that Sokolov  fabricated any evidence or that he removed the contradictory passages himself since he had died before the book was publish and Orlov was in charge.  Orlov or even the publisher could have shorten the book which left out certain passages.  Point is, someone did.

So, what were these passages and if seen would they really make any difference in our conclusions as to what occured on the night of 16/17 July 1918?

How many of you know this???

>>Then the shooting started; last for two or three mintues.  Nich. was killed on the spot by the comm. himself.  A. F. died immediately after that and the other R-ovs (altogather 12 people were shot): N., A.F., four daughters (Tatiana, Olga, Maria, and Anastasia), Doctor Botkin, the footman Trupp, the cook Tikhomirov, another cook, and a lady-in-waiting whose last name the commandants has forgotten.  A., three of his sister, the lady-in-waiting, and Bothkin were still alive.<<   Those still alive were killed shortly thereafter and it as accomplished in the same room where the others lay dead.

In 1920 Yurovsky claimed 12 people were shot not 11.

People ask me where do I draw the line between the truth of the testimonies and the lies.  Wish I could, but  I don't have a magic wand which I can wave over evidence that instantly puts the lies on the left and the truths on the right.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #153 on: September 08, 2005, 11:30:50 AM »
Well, the discussion has progressed pretty much beyond the level of my knowledge, but since Ritka was kind enough to post the link in another thread, I'll offer my opinion as well.

I don't believe anybody ultimately survived, and I don't believe Anna Anderson/Manahan was Anastasia Nikolaevna. That said, I have to admit that a good 90% of my research has been devoted to the time the Romanovs were alive, so my opinion on the subject is really more like a starting point. For the moment, I accept the DNA evidence against Mrs. Manahan, even though I realize there's controvesy surrounding it. I just haven't done enough reading yet to be swayed.

As for the evidence other than DNA -- whew! it simply overwhelms me. So much is contradictory, and so many witnesses' feelings were so strong and yet so divided! Who should I believe: Botkin or Gilliard, for example. I know evidence for both sides can be amassed, and cases can be built for the credibility of the witnesses involved, but for me, it's the sort of case that would depend on having my own first-hand knowledge of the people involved, and that's just not possible. I'm a gut-feeling kind of gal in this case, and since I never met Anastasia Nikolaevna, Anastasia Manahan, Gilliard, Botkin, et al., I don't know whether I'll ever form a conviction I can be completely confident of. So in the meantime, until I can do a WHOLE lot more reading on the subject, I'll admit to using science as a crutch...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
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Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #154 on: September 08, 2005, 01:34:21 PM »
Quote
Makes me wonder how many other "contradictory passages" have been left out in other testimonies?


Makes me wonder too...  ???

hi sarahelizabethii!

Offline etonexile

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2005, 12:17:56 PM »
In light of the objective DNA testing evidence...it puts all the rest of the so-called "evidence"....which is "huge"....into a silly light....People will believe what they wish from subjective...."facts"...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #156 on: September 09, 2005, 12:38:29 PM »
There are no "silly lights" twinkling from some spaceship driven by little green persons, bears, cats, dogs, rats, birds, beavers, fish... (the list is too long to complete) just honest questions and opinions from honest people who  have posted/and will be posting.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #157 on: October 30, 2005, 10:54:36 AM »
This is probably dangerous territory, but I'll take a risk...

As in my previous poll, I'm NOT looking for discussion or debate, or even reasons why you feel the way you do -- just your opinion on these questions. Please, just answer yes, no, or undecided!

1. Do you believe Anna Anderson was a member of the Schanskowska family?

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanskowska were the same person?

If you want to discuss your & other people's reasons/theories/opinions, please refer to these threads:
FS and AA - Differences
FS as AA--Why and How
FS/AA Photographic Comparison

the Schanskowska family

FS and the Serial Killer Theory
Was FS Murdered By Grossmann?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #158 on: October 30, 2005, 10:54:53 AM »
1. Yes
2. Undecided (haven't read enough to know, yet)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #159 on: October 30, 2005, 01:56:45 PM »
I'm with you:

1. yes
2. undecided

Offline Annie

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #160 on: October 30, 2005, 02:59:01 PM »
1. Do you believe Anna Anderson was a member of the Schanskowska family?

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanskowska were the same person?

YES

YES

I really think the chances she were some other distant anonymous cousin who was the right age and happened to look so much like FS and appear in the same city at the same time FS disappeared  are so astronomical I'd be more likely to believe a member of the IF escaped.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline etonexile

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #161 on: October 30, 2005, 03:21:27 PM »
Quote
1. Do you believe Anna Anderson was a member of the Schanskowska family?
 
2. Do you believe Anna Anderson and Franziska Schanskowska were the same person?

YES

YES

I really think the chances she were some other distant anonymous cousin who was the right age and happened to look so much like FS and appear in the same city at the same time FS disappeared  are so astronomical I'd be more likely to believe a member of the IF escaped.


There she goes again....being reasonable and logical....some people... ;)

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #162 on: October 30, 2005, 03:31:45 PM »
1. 100% yes without any reasonable doubt.
2. Yes, by a preponderance of the evidence.

Offline Denise

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #163 on: October 30, 2005, 03:34:40 PM »
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1. 100% yes without any reasonable doubt.
2. Yes, by a preponderance of the evidence.



I agree with this.  Qualified to say that if any new information comes forward in my lifetime, I'll take a look, but the DNA satisfies me.  And the likelihood of a mystery cousin (close or distant) of FS being AA is slim to none at this juncture.

Offline Merrique

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Re: Your Personal Opinons on Survival and Claimants
« Reply #164 on: October 30, 2005, 04:41:52 PM »
I'd have to say I agree with FA and Denise on this.
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D