Author Topic: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end  (Read 68520 times)

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Offline Ortipo

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Paternity Of Paul I
« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2012, 09:39:19 AM »
тяв-тяв,

There has been much speculation whether Paul is the son of Peter III or of Sergei Saltykov.  The remains of both Paul and Peter are interred at Peter And Paul Cathedral in Saint Petersburg.  Has DNA testing been done?
тяв-тяв

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Paternity Of Paul I
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2012, 11:35:41 AM »
тяв-тяв,

There has been much speculation whether Paul is the son of Peter III or of Sergei Saltykov.  The remains of both Paul and Peter are interred at Peter And Paul Cathedral in Saint Petersburg.  Has DNA testing been done?

  IMO, and to my knowledge, no.  

  Having personally visited the Cathedral of SS Peter and Paul, I have the impression that the exhumation of a body in the central part of the cathedral is both difficult in obtaining the various approvals needed and very costly.  
  Perhaps there MAY be other items such as saved hair locks/cuttings, but then one has to consider the chain of custody, degredation via handling of specimens, etc.  Additionally, while this is an old "bone of contention" that arises occasionally, there seems to be no sustained/concerted effort  to focus on the thought.      Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 12:05:51 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2012, 06:37:49 AM »
Generally speaking, there is a certain distaste, to put it no more strongly, for exhumations unless they are absolutely necessary, and even then.

I don't know about the position in Russia, but in England & Wales (Scotland has a separate legal system which I don't know much about) a court order is required and they are not easy to get. Exhumation orders are granted from time to time where there is a suspected murder, the victim has been buried and exhumation is needed to get evidence for the investigation. Another example is a scientific investigation into Spanish 'flu, which was carried out about five years ago (the BBC did a programme about it. The politician and diplomat Sir Mark Sykes died from Spanish 'flu during the Paris Peace Conference and was buried in a lead coffin. The investigators hoped that his remains would be sufficiently preserved to enable them to extract the bacterium. They got an exhumation order, but a major factor was that Sir Mark's family were very happy for it to go ahead (the present baronet said in the programme that his grandfather had been a very public-spirited man and if he could have approved, he would have!). Unfortunately, the coffin had spilt and they didn't get anything useful, but the point is clear.

I doubt whether the current Romanovs would present a sufficiently united front to override the general presumption against exhumation. Getting an exhumation of Georgy Alexandrovich was apparently pretty difficult.

Ann

Offline Ortipo

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2012, 02:32:06 PM »
Thanks for the responses!
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aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2012, 02:47:08 PM »
Thanks for the responses!

  You are very welcome, I'm certain!  Just a last recollection (with which I do not necessairly agree), a Russian friend commenting on this very topic some years ago in Russia, remarked, gesturing:  "There is Peter (III) and there is Paul (I).  They are duly consencrated and accepted Russian Emperors.  Let them be! "                                                         Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 02:49:06 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Hector

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2013, 12:23:23 PM »
They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2013, 04:14:34 PM »
Quote
They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?

No other male Oldenburg descendants have been tested for their Y-DNA so there is nothing to compare him with.

Offline LadyHezter

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2013, 09:21:45 AM »
I read somewhere- Wikipedia, I Think, that Nicholas II-s Y haplogroup was predicted to be R1b. To my-(limited) -knowledge, R1b is more common in western Europe, than in the east- so itīs most likely, that Peter III was Pavel I-s father after all. Are  there any male descendants of the Saltykovs living today?
If there are-and they would be willing to test, that could answer some questions.

Regards,

Tamara


Offline Hector

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2013, 10:51:10 PM »
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They did paternal DNA tests of the remains of Nicholas II right? Wouldn't that show he is an Oldenburg descendant or not?

No other male Oldenburg descendants have been tested for their Y-DNA so there is nothing to compare him with.
There are tons of male Oldenburg descendants. They used Prince Philip's mtDNA and he is a male-line Oldenburg descendant (he is direct male-line of King Frederick I of Denmark's younger son while Emperor Nicholas II is descended from male-line of his oldest son).

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2013, 01:23:52 PM »
Prince Philp did assist in identifying Nicolas and family, and, of course, his sons are also male line Oldenburg descendants. But the Russians could be kinda reluctant to exhume Pavel!

Ann

Offline Hector

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2013, 10:47:16 PM »
Prince Philp did assist in identifying Nicolas and family, and, of course, his sons are also male line Oldenburg descendants. But the Russians could be kinda reluctant to exhume Pavel!

Ann

Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.

Offline DNAgenie

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2013, 11:41:10 PM »
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Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.
 
Yes that could be done, IF anyone other than Prince Phillip knows what his Y-DNA results are. It is likely that Prince Charles and William and Harry have also been Y-DNA tested, but as no-one else knows the results, we cannot make the comparison.

Offline Hector

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »
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Couldn't they just compare Y-DNA from Nicholas II to Prince Phillip without exhuming Emperor Paul? If they match, then Catherine the Great really was just trying to discredit her son's hereditary claim.
 
Yes that could be done, IF anyone other than Prince Phillip knows what his Y-DNA results are. It is likely that Prince Charles and William and Harry have also been Y-DNA tested, but as no-one else knows the results, we cannot make the comparison.
Doesn't seem like Prince Philip would let researchers use his mtDNA yet wouldn't let them use his Y-DNA.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2013, 12:55:41 PM »
The Y DNA technique wasn't developed when the Pig's Meadow remains were originally tested, so unles there are suitable samples of Nicolas's or Alexei!s remains available, there would still need to be an exhumation. Perhaps it would be best to use Alexei, since his mains have yet to be required, and it is possible that the recent tests did include Y DNA.

Ann

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Emperor Pavel - life and tragic end
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2013, 03:46:05 PM »
The Y DNA technique wasn't developed when the Pig's Meadow remains were originally tested, so unles there are suitable samples of Nicolas's or Alexei!s remains available, there would still need to be an exhumation. Perhaps it would be best to use Alexei, since his mains have yet to be required, and it is possible that the recent tests did include Y DNA.

Ann

Vladimir Soloviev, Chief Procurator of Russia, who was assigned to this case and has conducted the criminal investigation for many years, has, on several occasions, stated that sufficient material was retained in order to conduct further tests in the future, if the need ever arose.
инок Николай