Author Topic: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery  (Read 51905 times)

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RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2009, 10:03:57 AM »
You see there was a little thing called "guilt about patricide"... probably would be one of the main reasons he left.  If you read that book, you will be a believer.  Trust me.

You're right, I read that Emperor Alexander had a knowledge of the conspiracy against his father Paul I, but he didn't do nothing to prevent the assassination of his father...although I don't think that he was directly involved in that cospiracy himself.

Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2009, 11:55:24 AM »
He wasn't directly involved, but he felt like it was his fault anyways.   Who wouldn't?  If someone kill your father for your benefit, you gotta feel some guilt.

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2009, 12:20:22 PM »
Indeed true, if he actually didn't die on december 1, 1825, the guilt about patricide would be an explanation of why he wanted to disappear...however, conspiracy against Paul I to part, he was indeed more human than his father and his grandmother, Empress Catherine II (although she was the greatest Empress, anyway).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 12:26:37 PM by RomanovsFan4Ever »

Offline violetta

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2009, 03:21:19 PM »
although the mystery of ivan kuzmich is not goingt to be solved there are some circumstances that might testify to his wish to leave his surroundings. this fact should be taken for granted.i`ve gathered some facts from a few sources.

1. in 1812 he told one of the ladies in waiting: " no, the imperial throne isn`t for me.if i could change my life circumstances i`d do this"

2.in 1817 he said that a monarch should perform his duties aslong as he feels himself physically strong.if he doesn`t feel strong enough he should give up but assured everyone that he felt strong but he wasn`t sure what would happen to him in 10 or 15 years.

3.he also told his younger brother nikolay that he would be his heir because constantine wanted to renounce his rights to the throne. alexander 1 also said that nikolay would take over the throne during his lifetime. grand duchess alexandra feodorovna became scared , and when alexander saw her scared eyes he assured her that he would put this idea into practice later, in a few years` time

4. he also compared himself with a soldier who had served a 25-year term and it was high time to leave the army.... 


Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2009, 04:17:18 AM »
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure Feodor Kuzmich was Tsar Alexander I.  If you can find any evidence that proves otherwise completely conclusively (ok, that didn't make sense), tell me about it.

Offline violetta

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2009, 02:48:38 PM »
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure Feodor Kuzmich was Tsar Alexander I.  If you can find any evidence that proves otherwise completely conclusively (ok, that didn't make sense), tell me about it.


i`m 100% sure that nowdays it`s impossible to state with absolute certainty that alexander 1 was fedor kuzmich or vice versa. we can speculte with bigger or smaller probability, some facts might suggest that fedor kuzmich is MOST PROBABBLY the tzar. it`s impossible to conduct dna analysis as alexnder`s coffin is empty.
in my post of 31.07 i presented some evidence concerning the tzar`s wish to leave the court nd his position here are some facts that may suggest the existence of the plot that was supposed to help alexander to leave the court.
 
1. there were favotable conditions to carry out alexander`s plans:  a. taganrog was far away far way so it took weeks to get to st petersburg b. his loving wife elizaveta alexeevna with whom she became close again loved him and was ready to help him

2. one of the servants witnessed the following scene: the tzar was kneeling in front of his wife wife whispering "darling darling, forgive me, please!"

3. three days before alexander`s death the tzar received  news bout the death of a messenger called maskov. as soon as the tzar learned bout this he left his bed and immediately went to his wife .they talked for 6 hours, and the subject of their conversation remained a mystery.

4. alexandrr`s doctor claimed thta he didn`t sign autopsy documents. he also said that in the autopsy documents they stated that the tzar had wounds on his right leg but in reality the tzar had wounds  on his left leg.
5.he didn`t want to see  priest althugh he was a firm believer in god

6.the day before is death, when according to all the reports, his condition improved elizaveta alexeevna left their house and went to the neigbouring house where they prepared a room for her.
7. on the day of his death the doctor was bsent, alexander`s friend volkonskiy was prsent instead
8.strangely enoufg, elizaveta alexeevna decided to stay in taganrog though her condition had improved
9.when the tzar`s coffin arrived at the village of babino, not far from petersburg, mriya fodorovna,the dowager empress, arrived there at night.she ordered to open the coffin looked at the body for a long time and left.
10. the srvice took place at tsrskoe selo at night (!),as  the members of the imperial fmily were passing the coffin. mariya fedorovna stopped in front of it and said loudly so that evrybody could hear:  " yes, this is my dear son my dear alexander!"
11.prerevolutionary historians claimed that nikolay I could not stand the fact that someone wsnot of the royl  blood was lying in st pter and pul cathedral so he ordered to tke the body away from the cathedral. his son opened the coffin and found out that it was empty.
12.grand dule nikolay mikhailovich, a professional historian, said to moriis paleologue, the french ambassador, that fedor kuzmich was  tzar alexander 1.soon afterwards nikolay mikhailovich as if changed his opinion on the issue nd followed the official version.

these facts don`t state unequivocally tht fedor kuzmich was tzar alexander but they DO  look weird thus cauing doubts...


Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2009, 04:05:11 PM »
Quote
i`m 100% sure that nowdays it`s impossible to state with absolute certainty that alexander 1 was fedor kuzmich or vice versa. we can speculte with bigger or smaller probability, some facts might suggest that fedor kuzmich is MOST PROBABBLY the tzar. it`s impossible to conduct dna analysis as alexnder`s coffin is empty.
in my post of 31.07 i presented some evidence concerning the tzar`s wish to leave the court nd his position here are some facts that may suggest the existence of the plot that was supposed to help alexander to leave the court.
 
1. there were favotable conditions to carry out alexander`s plans:  a. taganrog was far away far way so it took weeks to get to st petersburg b. his loving wife elizaveta alexeevna with whom she became close again loved him and was ready to help him

2. one of the servants witnessed the following scene: the tzar was kneeling in front of his wife wife whispering "darling darling, forgive me, please!"

3. three days before alexander`s death the tzar received  news bout the death of a messenger called maskov. as soon as the tzar learned bout this he left his bed and immediately went to his wife .they talked for 6 hours, and the subject of their conversation remained a mystery.

4. alexandrr`s doctor claimed thta he didn`t sign autopsy documents. he also said that in the autopsy documents they stated that the tzar had wounds on his right leg but in reality the tzar had wounds  on his left leg.
5.he didn`t want to see  priest althugh he was a firm believer in god

6.the day before is death, when according to all the reports, his condition improved elizaveta alexeevna left their house and went to the neigbouring house where they prepared a room for her.
7. on the day of his death the doctor was bsent, alexander`s friend volkonskiy was prsent instead
8.strangely enoufg, elizaveta alexeevna decided to stay in taganrog though her condition had improved
9.when the tzar`s coffin arrived at the village of babino, not far from petersburg, mriya fodorovna,the dowager empress, arrived there at night.she ordered to open the coffin looked at the body for a long time and left.
10. the srvice took place at tsrskoe selo at night (!),as  the members of the imperial fmily were passing the coffin. mariya fedorovna stopped in front of it and said loudly so that evrybody could hear:  " yes, this is my dear son my dear alexander!"
11.prerevolutionary historians claimed that nikolay I could not stand the fact that someone wsnot of the royl  blood was lying in st pter and pul cathedral so he ordered to tke the body away from the cathedral. his son opened the coffin and found out that it was empty.
12.grand dule nikolay mikhailovich, a professional historian, said to moriis paleologue, the french ambassador, that fedor kuzmich was  tzar alexander 1.soon afterwards nikolay mikhailovich as if changed his opinion on the issue nd followed the official version.

these facts don`t state unequivocally tht fedor kuzmich was tzar alexander but they DO  look weird thus cauing doubts...


I have to say I'm a little at a loss to understand what these 'facts' prove.  I can't see what was actually wierd about them, or what doubt they were supposed to cast.  Most seem easily susceptible of an alternative explanation, or are just not evidence:

1. Favourable conditions to carrying out a disappearance do not, in the absence of any other facts, suggest that such a deed was carried out.  In any case, Taganrog might have been a long way from St Petersburg but it wasn't in the middle of a desert and the Tsar was hardly on his own there - he had doctors, his wife, his wife's doctors, his friends, soldiers, servants, his wife's servants and the citizens of Taganrog itself milling around - not necessarily ideal conditions in which to vanish.  With regard to Elizaveta Alexeevna there is no evidence of any kind to suggest that because the Tsar had a better relationship with her, that she was ready to help him if he had the plan of pretending to be dead.  The one does not naturally follow on from the other.
2.  There might be plenty of reasons why Alexander might have been asking his wife for forgiveness that had nothing to do with a supposed plot to disappear.  If he had said "darling darling, forgive me please for planning to disappear" now that might have been evidence.
3.  The same as for no. 2.  The Tsar and his wife may have been discussing religion, philosophy, their youth, the weather - who knows.  There is no evidence here of any plot.  No doubt the inference is that there was a body which could be substituted for the Tsar's, but inference and speculation is not evidence. 
4.   All this argues is that Alexander's doctor was wary of committing himself to an explanation of the sudden death of a Tsar - he might have been blamed for not taking better care of him.  Far better to obliquely suggest that the body wasn't really that of his former patient.  Whether that was the explanation or not I can't say - all I am saying here is that there might be several possible reasons for the doctor's conduct which do not provide evidence in themselves of a plot by the Tsar to disappear.
5.  Again, not wishing to see a priest does not of itself indicate a desire to disappear.  It might mean he did not expect to die.
6.  As no. 5.  The Empress might have thought he would recover and moved to a different house so as to be out of the way of his doctors and nurses etc. but stayed in close visiting reach.  She herself was not well and no doubt had her own doctors, nurses etc. to consult.
7.  As nos. 4, 5 and 6.  The doctor, his patient and his patient's friend and wife all thought he was getting better.  The doctor (see no. 4), might subsequently have tried to cover his rather poor prognosis skills by letting people infer that his patient hadn't died because of his neglect.
8.  Why strangely?  She might just have been in a state of shock and still being an invalid, not up to immediately travelling a long distance, on bad roads, in winter.  An improvement was by no means a cure - Alexander and she had gone to Taganrog for her health and indeed she died 5 months later.  No reason to suppose she was just hanging around because her husband wasn't dead.
9.  Not in itself evidence that her son wasn't in that coffin.
10. The statement might have had something to do with the suddeness of Alexander's death giving rise to the rumours of his disappearance - and Maria Feodorovna wanted to contradict the rumours.  Again it does not in itself provide evidence that the rumours were true.
11. Exactly.  They claimed.  There wasn't a public exhumation with attested evidence.
12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 


Offline violetta

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2009, 04:25:24 PM »


I have to say I'm a little at a loss to understand what these 'facts' prove.  I can't see what was actually wierd about them, or what doubt they were supposed to cast.  Most seem easily susceptible of an alternative explanation, or are just not evidence:

1. Favourable conditions to carrying out a disappearance do not, in the absence of any other facts, suggest that such a deed was carried out.  In any case, Taganrog might have been a long way from St Petersburg but it wasn't in the middle of a desert and the Tsar was hardly on his own there - he had doctors, his wife, his wife's doctors, his friends, soldiers, servants, his wife's servants and the citizens of Taganrog itself milling around - not necessarily ideal conditions in which to vanish.  With regard to Elizaveta Alexeevna there is no evidence of any kind to suggest that because the Tsar had a better relationship with her, that she was ready to help him if he had the plan of pretending to be dead.  The one does not naturally follow on from the other.
2.  There might be plenty of reasons why Alexander might have been asking his wife for forgiveness that had nothing to do with a supposed plot to disappear.  If he had said "darling darling, forgive me please for planning to disappear" now that might have been evidence.
3.  The same as for no. 2.  The Tsar and his wife may have been discussing religion, philosophy, their youth, the weather - who knows.  There is no evidence here of any plot.  No doubt the inference is that there was a body which could be substituted for the Tsar's, but inference and speculation is not evidence. 
4.   All this argues is that Alexander's doctor was wary of committing himself to an explanation of the sudden death of a Tsar - he might have been blamed for not taking better care of him.  Far better to obliquely suggest that the body wasn't really that of his former patient.  Whether that was the explanation or not I can't say - all I am saying here is that there might be several possible reasons for the doctor's conduct which do not provide evidence in themselves of a plot by the Tsar to disappear.
5.  Again, not wishing to see a priest does not of itself indicate a desire to disappear.  It might mean he did not expect to die.
6.  As no. 5.  The Empress might have thought he would recover and moved to a different house so as to be out of the way of his doctors and nurses etc. but stayed in close visiting reach.  She herself was not well and no doubt had her own doctors, nurses etc. to consult.
7.  As nos. 4, 5 and 6.  The doctor, his patient and his patient's friend and wife all thought he was getting better.  The doctor (see no. 4), might subsequently have tried to cover his rather poor prognosis skills by letting people infer that his patient hadn't died because of his neglect.
8.  Why strangely?  She might just have been in a state of shock and still being an invalid, not up to immediately travelling a long distance, on bad roads, in winter.  An improvement was by no means a cure - Alexander and she had gone to Taganrog for her health and indeed she died 5 months later.  No reason to suppose she was just hanging around because her husband wasn't dead.
9.  Not in itself evidence that her son wasn't in that coffin.
10. The statement might have had something to do with the suddeness of Alexander's death giving rise to the rumours of his disappearance - and Maria Feodorovna wanted to contradict the rumours.  Again it does not in itself provide evidence that the rumours were true.
11. Exactly.  They claimed.  There wasn't a public exhumation with attested evidence.
12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 


[/quote]

they do not have to prove anything `cause i`ve never said that i`d like to prove anything. they only indicate that the circumstances of alexnder`s death are weird . if we take into considerations that the tzar wished to give up his function it may suggest that the circumstances of his death are weird. this thread is devoted to this mystery so anyone who knows anything plausible about the issue is welcome to contribute.

if you`ve read my post attentively you may have found that i don`t think that this mystery will ever be solved.it is not possible. i`ve listed some facts that might seem strange in the light of alexander`s death and the mystery of fedor kuzmich.

the facts that i`ve presented are not selected by me. they come from a book by moris paleologue and alexander baryatinskiy who conducted their respective research.

Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2009, 06:30:38 PM »
Ok, when I say give me any evidence that disproves something, from now on, I don't really mean it.  You guys really know a lot.  I applaud you.  Let me set aside some time to read all of that.... 

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2009, 04:06:17 PM »

12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 



Indeed - he was the sort of man who excitedly shared his half-formed theories for the sake of entertaining people. Nikolai M. never published a book in which he stated that Alexander survived; rather the opposite. But because he had ill-advisedly made some public statements to the contrary (one assumes) many prefer to assume that he'd somehow written his conclusions under imperial duress.....It seems that Nikolai M. was also preparing a book declaring that Kaspar Hauser was a member of his mother's family (Baden), but this too never appeared (and DNA shows that he was almost certainly wrong).
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Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2009, 04:18:36 PM »
Let's all admit that even if Feodor wasn't the tsar, we all still want to believe...

Offline violetta

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2010, 09:56:27 AM »
in replies 63, 65 & 67 I came up with a list of circustamstances and discrepancies that MIGHT have testified that there COULD HAVE BEEN SOETHING MORE to the death of the emperor Alexander I than it is officially accepted. It doesn`t prove anything, it rather poses a question: what REALLY happened in Taganrog? I`d like to pose another question because yesterday in Nikolay I`s file in GARF I found the hat belonging to Fedor Kuzmich. His hat was among the most important personal documents and state papers. Why? Why did the emperor keep it if Fedor Kuzmich was just a simple peasant, insane,perceiving himself as the dead emperor? weird, isn`t it?

Offline TimM

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2011, 01:06:04 AM »
I've always found this interesting.  I think, that if he had help, Alexander could have pulled it off.  It sounds like he just wanted out, and this was the only way to do it.  As he himself reportedly said, he had served 25 years, soldiers were allowed to retire after all that time.
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Offline Romanov_Fan19

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2015, 02:29:52 PM »
 I Have just bought  Imperial  Legend  pretty amazing

Offline Romanov_Fan19

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Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2015, 01:24:02 PM »
I Have come to the  opinion  that They were the same person   Too  many coencidents