Author Topic: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"  (Read 66316 times)

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Offline Ortino

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2005, 04:11:57 PM »
I actually agree with Radzinsky in the sense that Nicholas' actions lead him and his family to that end. Had he been able to rule efficiently and effectively, there would have been no need for a revolution or a reason for such radical sentiment. Nicholas' inability to do so did lead them to the grave.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ortino »

Offline lexi4

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2005, 04:37:16 PM »
I think Nicholas's inablility to lead was only part of it. A small piece of a bigger picture. What do you think?
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Offline etonexile

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2005, 05:52:35 PM »
Why didn't the former Czar use the issue of the safe departure of his family from Russia as a barganing chip before he would agree to abdicate the throne...?


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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2005, 06:03:17 PM »
Perhaps he believed that Misha would become Tsar & little else would change?
He may have believed that the revolutionaries only wanted to be rid of him & that there would be no danger to his family. After all, he was presented the abdication manifesto in a very civilized manner. Maybe?  :-/

Offline jtareb

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2005, 09:56:27 PM »
From what I've read he appeared to be in a state of shock about the whole situation. The very idea that the army around whom Romanov rule had been built would desert the Tsar was devestating. N2 only wanted to go back to his family.

Offline Ming

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2005, 11:49:27 AM »
I agree with the "shock" theory.  He had surrounded himself with "yes" people, and had an unrealistic picture of reality for a very long time.  Also, the only person he REALLY listened to was his wife.  He was a wonderful family man, but was in no way prepared to be Tsar, and he knew it and his mother knew, and a lot of people knew it.  I think he just wanted to go home, to his family, and chop wood and dig in his garden and not have to be Tsar anymore. I don't think it ever occured to him that his family would be harmed. At this moment, his whole world was closing in on him, and all he wanted was to go home to the one person who loved him and believed in him...his wife.  To them, family was everything.  Which is not in the least a BAD thing...but for the Tsar...he never did find the balance that was needed to be both a Tsar and a family man.

On the other spectrum, in England, it seems that the royalty know how to be good royals, but sort of have the "family" thing messed up.

Balance is a very, very hard thing to find...for us all.  I can't even imagine what it must be like for royalty.

Offline RichC

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2005, 02:32:44 PM »
Quote
Why didn't the former Czar use the issue of the safe departure of his family from Russia as a barganing chip before he would agree to abdicate the throne...?



I think he fully expected they would be allowed to go to England in short order.  I don't think he and his wife realized how they were perceived in England.  It must have been very hard to take when they realized they had been abandoned by the "Windsors".


Offline Ming

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2005, 02:52:39 PM »
I kind of hate to even think of this, but am wondering what the rest of you think:

When do you think...or know...or guess that the IF KNEW what would eventually happen to them at the end?

Did they ever give up hope of escape?  

Do you think they knew what would happen, but just not exactly when?

It does sound like, to me, they were startled when the "verdict" was read to them, seconds before the end.

I wonder if part of that shock was that they never really believed it would happen, or that it wouldn't happen THEN, or to all of them, etc.

I don't know if anyone can ever be prepared for a situation like that.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2005, 04:56:36 PM »
They certainly did not know the "when" of it.  Alexandra's diary entry just hours before the execution was as laconic as ever, and the family dressed calmly and walked down the stairs into the basement with no signs of awareness.

My guess is that they all had their individual cycles of hope and despair.  There are some reports that Olga appeared to be the most cognizant that things could not end well.  Their only real hope of escape seemed to be at the hands of the Germans, and she knew her father would never cooperate in such an attempt.

Alexei seemed clearly depressed near the end, which could as easily have arisen from his last bout of illness as from a presentiment of doom.  However, he did apparently injure himself deliberately at Tobolsk which, given his condition, seems tantamount to a suicide attempt.

Anastasia and Marie seemed to stay more or less chipper up until the end.  While some of this was merely the exuberance of healthy young girls, it also indicates that they were not in a setting over which hung the absolute certainty of doom.

During the early stage of their captivity in Tsarskoye Selo, Alexandra upbraided one of her daughters for crying by remarking that she would have a lot more to cry about later.  Was that a presentiment or a parent's annoyance at a temperamental child?  Hard to tell.

In the final weeks before their murder, the family changed their sleeping arrangements and began staying up to all hours fully dressed.  This apparently was in response to some letters apprising them of escape plans which were planted by the Ural Soviet in order to entrap them in a pretext for the executions.

My guess is each of your questions would be answered differently by different captives on different days.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

bluetoria

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2005, 10:55:39 AM »
Quote

My guess is that they all had their individual cycles of hope and despair.  
My guess is each of your questions would be answered differently by different captives on different days.  


Yes, I agree. I suppose it must be natural for anyone who is held in captivity to go through this. It is probably similar to how hostages have felt.
Alexandra's concern about their 'medicines' seem to suggest she hung on to the hope that they would eventually find freedom elsewhere...but she must have had her doubts sometimes.

Quote

Alexei seemed clearly depressed near the end, which could as easily have arisen from his last bout of illness as from a presentiment of doom.  


I think, apart from the terribly sad last entry in Alexandra's diary (in that everything was so ordinary), that one of the saddest things is reading Alexei's diary entries during captivity...his absolute BOREDOM! It must have been unbearable stuck in a stifling house for months with absolutely nothing to do & nothing to look forward to except uncertainty.  

Offline lexi4

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2005, 10:44:44 PM »
Quote

I think he fully expected they would be allowed to go to England in short order.  I don't think he and his wife realized how they were perceived in England.  It must have been very hard to take when they realized they had been abandoned by the "Windsors".


I agree. I think he was also led to believe that. According to Massie, England orginally said the IF could come to live there and later withdrew the offer.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline zoya_konstantinovna

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2005, 11:21:37 PM »
why did Nicholas II abdicate
Zoya

Offline lexi4

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2005, 11:38:06 PM »
Zoya,
You may want to check some of the other threads about Nicholas. I think this has been discussed. But one reason was because he really believed he was doing the right thing for Russia. And all of his Army had turned against him. A great book to read it Robert Massie Nicholas and Alexandra. I learned a lot from that book.
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Offline Belochka

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2005, 02:27:18 AM »
Quote
Zoya,
 And all of his Army had turned against him.


The Emperor lost the support of his appointed Generals. Surrounded by individuals who were predisposed to his downfall, in isolation the Emperor believed that his abdication was the only political choice he could make. This unprecedented action was to ensure that Russia would win WWI against Germany. His final proclamation was his testament to that belief.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: "Sam ikh privel v podval..." "he led them to the basement himself"
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 09:45:54 PM »
Could you at least look through the threads before posting repetitive questions?
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