Author Topic: Helena, Princess Christian of Schleswig-Holstein (1846-1921), and her family, Part I  (Read 117512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4501
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
And again one question regarding Marie Valerie zu Schleswig-Holstein...I found that some web sites listed her mother as Baroness Bertha von Wernitz(1868-1900)...as I also find whole Wernitz-Salm story a bit strange but also found that there is some connection between them on other sites...so don't know if the whole story is a fantasy...some other articles regarding Salm/Hornes titles from guide2womenleaders.com say that:

"1905-43 H.S.H Princesse Ivonne zu Salm-Kyburg Udvary
She inherited the Spanish-Brabant dignities by will of 1904, her father Fürst Friedrich V Salm-Kyrburg and of Hornes  (1845-1905) with authorization to transmit the titles and the dignity of Grandee of Spain. She was married to Karl Baron Udvary de Udvard, and mother of one daughter, Princess Margarita, who received all the dignities of the house of Hornes under the Spanish law, in a Notary  Act given in Liechtenstein in 1943. Ivone Ernestine Eleonore Rosalie Marie Cornelie lived (1885-1953).

1943-62 Guardian Princess Marguerite Udvary de Udvary of Hornes
Confirmed as Heiress of the titles and dignities of the Hornes family of the Spanish and Austrian Brabant, Spanish Netherlands, Limbourg, Luxembourg and Artois in a Notary  Act given in Liechtenstein in 1943, but the following year she and her mother appointed her son, Andreas von Wernitz zu Salm-Kyrburg as heir and Marguerite became guardian for her son. In 1986 she confirmed to her son, Baron Andreas v. Wernitz zu Salm-Kyrburg (b. 1943-) with the dignities in front of the Spanish  justice Ministry according the new nobility law regulation and she kept the title of Princess of Hornes til her dead in 1995. She lived (1909-95)"


So,if there is any truth connection between Salm-Wernitz titles who is than this Baroness Bertha von Wernitz and based on what was she listed as mother of Valerie?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 09:41:09 AM by Marc »

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13157
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
I've been thinking of which of QV's grandchildren wrote a memoir, so far I can think of:

Kaiser Willhelm
Princess Moretta
Queen Marie
Grand Duke Ernest
Princess Victoria of Milford Haven
Princess Alice of Athlone
Princess Marie Louise

Any others?
It's wonderful so many of them wrote a memoir..

It's also a nice cross-section of the grandchildren--spread out over different countries and different ages. Wilhelm, for instance, was already married when Princess Alice was born. There are some grandchildren you could only wish left memoirs--I bet Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen's would've been bitchy in the extreme. ; )

Marc--that's very interesting information you dug up. Interesting that some sites actually name the supposed mother--did they say on what basis they arrived at their conclusion?
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4501
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Unfortunately no...they say that Baroness Bertha von Wernitz is descendant of Princess of Montleart who is also an ancestor of Savoy Kings...but this whole story about Baron von Wernitz was a bit "dodgy" so I googled and saw on other sites they say that they have indeed inherited some titles from the Salm family which means that there might be something true in this whole thing,although they don't name the source of such claim...

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Regarding the mysterious Bertha von Wernitz, who is listed on Darryl Lundy's thePeerage.com site, Marlene Koenig wrote in the Mecklenburg-Schwerin thread:

Unfortunately,  Daryl Lundy falls for whatever information is given to him.  He had listed a mother of Valerie Marie zu Schleswig-Holstein - which was absed on someone sending him information ..  but the woman, whose first name was Berta, never existed.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 10:53:26 PM by Tainyi sovetnik »

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4501
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Thank you...I thought that there must be something wrong ;-/

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
I have read that Marie Louise's memoires don't reveal much. They certainly don't, if all she has to say about her paternal grandmother, Countess Louise Danneskiold-Samsøe, is that "she was a Danish lady", as per her Wikipedia article! I haven't read the book - does she go into more detail about her paternal ancestors or the whole Schleswig-Holstein question?

Any interesting reports about trips to the ancestral home in Schleswig-Holstein?

I wonder if Marie Louise ever read Robert Erskine Childers's "The Riddle of the Sands" (1903), which besides being the first modern spy novel (the theme being German plans for an invasion of England via East Frisia) must be one of the very few British novels partially set in Schleswig-Holstein. It's quite entertaining and available online as an e-book via Wikipedia.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:40:25 PM by Tainyi Sovetnik »

Offline Marc

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4501
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Regarding the mysterious Bertha von Wernitz, who is listed on Darryl Lundy's thePeerage.com site, Marlene Koenig wrote in the Mecklenburg-Schwerin thread:

Unfortunately,  Daryl Lundy falls for whatever information is given to him.  He had listed a mother of Valerie Marie zu Schleswig-Holstein - which was absed on someone sending him information ..  but the woman, whose first name was Berta, never existed.

This Bertha was also listed in genealgy.euweb.cz -here they don't say that she is the mother of Marie Valerie but just as a mother of illegitimate child of Prince Albert...I wonder why so many sites listed a person that didn't exist...somewhere she is a mother of Marie Valerie,somewhere a mother of unknown other illegitimate child...complete mystery!

Offline Paul

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 225
  • born a century too late
    • View Profile
Any Danish or Holsteiner titles aside, did Queen Victoria grant the Schleswig-Holstein children any British specific honours?

When George V purged the German relatives in 1917, did Albert of S-H lose his British citisenship?
The only real possession you'll ever have is your character.
Tom Wolfe
US author & journalist (1931 - )

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2792
    • View Profile
Albert of Schleswig-Holstein was much mentioned in the run-up to the Titles Deprivation Act 1917, but eventually no action was taken against him under the Act.

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

  • Guest
Although the British Augustenburgs were not descendants of Friedrich VIII, who had declared himself Duke of Schleswig-Holstein in 1863, they too were styled Princes(esses) of just Schleswig-Holstein (untill they became "of nothing"). So did they too sport the simplified quartered arms, which I think very beautiful (more so than the current divided per pale S-H state arms) especially because of the symmetrical colour scheme; here depicted in the alliance arms of their cousin Auguste Victoria and Wilhelm of Germany-Prussia - did they sport these said and pictured arms instead of the overcrowded arms featuring Norway, Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarschen, Oldenburg and Delmenhorst?



« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 05:14:23 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Marlene

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2468
  • I live and breath QVD
    • View Profile
    • Royal Musings
He was not a British prince, and did not have a British title.  His father was created HRH, but that did not apply to the children.

Albert of Schleswig-Holstein was much mentioned in the run-up to the Titles Deprivation Act 1917, but eventually no action was taken against him under the Act.

Ann
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline Kalafrana

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2792
    • View Profile
The young Schleswig-Holsteins were created Highnesses by a British Royal Warrant (I will need to look up the date), but did not hold any other British titles. Albert was a GCVO in addition.

Incidentally, there is a memorial to Prince Christian Victor outside the Citadel in Plymouth - a typically Victorian depiction of him being drawn up to heaven (and looking not unlike his cousin Albert Victor).

Ann

Offline royal_netherlands

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile


Princess Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein with some members of the royal household probably at the Victoria & Albert. Quit some attention from the men don't you think (wink)?

An rather intresting/amusing fragment of a letter written by 'Thora' towards her uncle Arthur, the Duke of Connaught and to Captain Spencer Edmund Hollond (you can read about him at the wikipedia site). She wrote this letter when she was staying with her cousin Princess Margaret of Connaught ('Daisy') in Sweden. I think she was on really good terms with 'Daisy' and her family, that's probably why she was also present at Princess Ingrid's wedding (maybe as a link back to Ingrid's mother). 'Thora' seems to make quit a 'happy go lucky' impression at me threw this letter, and not the dull character that sometimes gets the upper hand. She seems to like the many parties and even goes this far to entertain people together with 'Daisy' threw piano or with stories. 'Thora' likes a bit of 'auction' as it seems. And this is just a small insight in her royal life, and it proves once again that you can not judge a person when so little is known about them. As this fragment seems rather fun, imagine what would come forward out of the many letters floating around in the royal archives.

(Princess, 1870-1948, daughter of Princess Helena, and granddaughter Queen Victoria) Autograph letter signed ‘Victoria’ to Captain Spencer Edmund Hollond, (1874-1950, ADC to the Duke of Connaught, 1901-1904), thanking him:

“for letting me know about the train at Copenhagen”, so that she will “not have to spend an hour there at some Hotel ... After poor Lula [Mrs Hollond] having no cushion or nightdress it seems a little hard that more of the baggage should have gone wrong. Please tell her we sympathized deeply ... when we discovered her cushion ... We miss you both very much ... this new party speak much more Swedish, which makes everything a little flat for me at meals”, on top of “the dull Swedish way of all the men going off ... in vain do Daisy & I protest, so it ends in our playing the piano or telling stories”, a dinner tonight with 30 people promises to be amusing, and tomorrow “we are going to see a musical play at Helsingborg !!”, 4 sides 8vo., Sophiero, near Helsingborg, Sweden, 18th September 1908

The Princess was born and brought up in England - her father, Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein, was a Major-General in the British Army. (The family gave up their German titles in 1917). She is here staying with her cousin ‘Daisy’, Princess Margaret of Connaught, Crown Princess of Sweden, who had spent the summer in England and was returning home.

RN
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:00:36 AM by royal_netherlands »

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 17199
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Is the photo and letter part of an auction ?

Offline royal_netherlands

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Yes the were, but I can not remember when and at which auction house they were auctioned.