Author Topic: Prince Orloff's letter  (Read 5410 times)

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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Prince Orloff's letter
« on: March 06, 2005, 03:42:19 AM »
Browsing through Intelligence documents at the UK National Archives yesterday I stumbled across a brief reference in a report from March 1919 compiled  by Basil Thompson, Director of Intelligence at the Home Office:

"The Americans believe the Tsar & his family still to be alive, Prince Orloff having stated that he received a letter from the Tsar dated September 18th 1918, a considerable time after his execution was reported.  This is generally believed by Russian officers of the Volunteer Army, who think that he is living in Siberia with his son and daughter, while the Tsarina and the other daughters are living in some hiding place a long way off."

Anyone else come across references to this letter?

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Candice

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2005, 07:21:48 AM »
Phil, very interesting.  Were you able to make a copy of Thompson's letter. Would love to see a copy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Candice »

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 02:33:38 PM »
The piece quoted is verbatim from a general report issued by Thompson which touches on all kinds of issues.  There is no suggestion that Thompson had actually seen the letter or from what source he obtained the information (though he had access to Foreign Office and Secret Service sources).  I'm just trying to see if anyone has come across any other reference to this letter.

Phil Tomaselli  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 05:44:09 PM »
 Maybe it was the telegram Phil mentioned which gave Orlov more than a little interest in what Sokolov discovered.

Sokolov used Lieutenant Abaza, who was the assistant naval attache at the White Russian embassy in London to decode telegrams so the British would have access to these telegrams sent by Sokolov.

It was Orlov who encourage the investigator with money and an apartment on his estate.

To add even more interest it was Orlov, after Sokolov's death, who edited Sokolov's book before it went to the presses in Germany.  I wonder what was taken out or added to the report.  Don't think we'll ever know.

Grand Duke Nikolai, the cousin of Nicholas II, did not accept Sokolov's report that Nicholas II was executed.  On p. 174 of Summers and Mangold's book THE FILE ON THE TSAR,  GD Nikolai's position is mentioned and it's stated that "his cousin the tsar could not be regarded as dead."

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 06:48:59 PM »
Quote


Grand Duke Nikolai, the cousin of Nicholas II, did not accept Sokolov's report that Nicholas II was executed.  On p. 174 of Summers and Mangold's book THE FILE ON THE TSAR,  GD Nikolai's position is mentioned and it's stated that "his cousin the tsar could ot be regarded as dead."

AGRBear


You mean Nikolasha? He was very close to the Dowager Empress, who refused to believe they were dead. Maybe that had something to do with it, along with his own guilt and denial in some way?

Offline Candice

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 01:40:26 PM »
I think they could have been telling the truth.  When a close family member dies no matter how much pain, we always accept the fact.

The Dowager Empress and Nikolasha were adamant that IF survived. They believe that until their death.  

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 02:06:42 PM »
Quote
I think they could have been telling the truth.  When a close family member dies no matter how much pain, we always accept the fact.
 


They may have felt this way because they never saw the bodies. For a long while there were many relatives of those who died in the World Trade Center who were hoping that their loved ones were alive but missing, even though it was pretty obvious that they couldn't have been. This is the same type of thing. It is a lot easier to stay in  denial when the bodies were never seen by anyone and when the person/people in question was/were young and healthy and did not die of any disease, but because of an accident or murder. It is very different from someone dying of disease or old age in their bed and the relatives seeing every day their deterioration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 05:26:02 PM »
Quote
Browsing through Intelligence documents at the UK National Archives yesterday I stumbled across a brief reference in a report from March 1919 compiled  by Basil Thompson, Director of Intelligence at the Home Office:

"The Americans believe the Tsar & his family still to be alive, Prince Orloff having stated that he received a letter from the Tsar dated September 18th 1918, a considerable time after his execution was reported.  This is generally believed by Russian officers of the Volunteer Army, who think that he is living in Siberia with his son and daughter, while the Tsarina and the other daughters are living in some hiding place a long way off."

Anyone else come across references to this letter?

Phil Tomaselli


The letter was dated 18 Sept 1918, Phil tells us, and it was from Tsar Nicholas II to Prince Orlov.

The Bolsheviks claimed to have executed Nicholas II on the 16/17 of July, so, if the letter is not a fake then Nicholas II was not executed in July.

Did Nicholas II's mother and/or cousin Nicholai receive letters from Nicholas II after 16/17 July 1918, also?

Maybe, Orlov showed them the letter he had received.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2005, 03:07:43 PM »
Wonder what our US records show about this whole affair?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Prince Orloff's letter
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2005, 05:35:32 AM »
This is really interesting. I would like to know more. Any suggestions? Maybe some books I could read? There are so many unanswered questions regarding this whole affair. Wonder if we will ever really know.
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