Author Topic: AA and the Russian Language  (Read 61851 times)

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2005, 10:10:14 AM »
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Hi Penny,

This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.


Hi, Belochka! :)  See my various responses below...

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a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"

compare to:

b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife.  I do not consider that linguistic ability."

Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?


No-nothing is mentioned in the transcript, but I only read through and translated from German the most relevant portions, so it might have been pursued later.

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OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.


They were-in the context of the transcript-it refers to Olga's visit with AA with the Gilliards.

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A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.


And Russian-both in questions asked and in the remarks to Shura.

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My other questions are:

Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:

1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?


Maybe, but I doubt it.  I would have to look but I don't believe it is mentioned in this context.  There might be references in other materials.

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2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?


Ditto.

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The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.

The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.

Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.


Agreed.  My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both.  This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.

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Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?


At great length, but I don't recall where or in what volume they are.

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From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.


Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian.  Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.

What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals.  I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions.  So I await that list.  Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.

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It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.

Finally,

Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?


This happened frequently, and many examples exist in the court records-page after page of her Russian.  We even have some of these.  To obtain a better selection, the Court looked at a number of samples, including letters, postcards, etc., that spanned a number of years, including the 1920s.  These were analyzed by both handwriting experts, who concluded that AA's writing matched that of Anastasia, and linguistic experts, who found no errors or
mistakes.

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Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.

Your replies to these questions will be appreciated. :)


No problem!  I hope that my answers have been helpful...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2005, 10:24:17 AM »
I did not see the last 2 posts come up as I was editing my other post. Sorry FA, I agree this has gone too far. But as long is she is allowed to openly attack me, call me a liar, garbage, crap, etc. I would think I'd have the right to counterpoint. I realize it takes 2, and someone has to shut up and let it go, but I'd rather not leave my integrity in question if I can back myself up. But I really do hope there will be no more because I don't want to fight. Penny has aimed things at me personally for way too long now, and on other boards I'm on, people have been banned for much less than the way she has behaved here at times.  

I guess we should both thank you for continuing to put up with us.  I do hope we can all discuss without the personal jabs!! I promise I will be committed to this!

I do have a suggestion: on other boards I'm on, posts become permenant after 1 hour and only the FA can change/delete them after that. I think this would be a good thing here, because then people would seriously have to worry about what they say before they post it and leave it archived for all to see online. I know it's not up to me, but it has helped cut down on the rudeness and extreme behavior on other boards, and it might help  here too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2005, 10:26:31 AM »
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Bear, there were much more recent comments than that, but as of now I can't find them. If I do I will resurrect them, but I am quite sure she has deleted them.  (I do wonder if her recent 'change' has anything to do with us discovering a recent alleged change in Mr. K also to that same position?) I have a lot of 'pet theories' on all of this but I suppose it's best to keep them to myself since this would be discussing individuals rather than history. :-X


Oh, GOD, Annie!  Must you run around after me like this?  I'll concede your point, if it will stop you.  I DID overstate myself last summer, I admit it.  I have swithered back and forth on AA for years -- I've also said that.  But I have never said that I did not accept the DNA evidence.  I do.  Try as I might, I have not been able to reconcile that evidence with the other evidence, which I do believe points unequivocally towards her being Anastasia.  Therefore, I have had to concede that she was NOT Anastasia.  My only mistake here is in not remembering every freaking post I ever made -- I thought I had come to this conclusion before I started posting here, that's all.

And Peter Kurth has not changed his mind on Anastasia.  Write and ask him.  That interview was given a good few years ago as he went through the same mental gymnastics that many of us did, trying to reconcile one set of evidence with the other.  The interviewer must have caught him on a "bad" day, because I know from our most recent conversations that he still "believes" in her.

And how am I supposed to respond to the insinuation that Peter controls my mind?  Think that if you like, you're going to anyway.  

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Besides, the bottom line is, she posted that I was lying and should 'stop' my 'horsesh*t' because she never posted that, but she did, and that is my point, not what she currently believes or her right to change her mind. I was defending my own personal integrity as not being a liar.


OK, Annie, I'll apologize for this one.  But I stand by my belief that a LOT of what you post IS horsesh*t because you don't read the sources.


"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2005, 10:32:07 AM »
So Kurth still believes in her? Okay, I thought it was strange he'd give up after all this time. And I do not think he controls your mind, that's not what I meant at all.

So let's leave it like this:

You DID post your belief AA was probably Anastasia.

AA DID utter at least one sentence in Russian.

As far as my other posts still being 'horsesh*t', well, I still think that's rude extreme and uncalled for. Hey, we're supposed to call a truce now, it seems unanimous, the only 'horsesh*t' around here is fighting that no one else wants to hear :-/

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2005, 10:34:37 AM »
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

That is a line drawn.

Back to topic please.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2005, 10:35:19 AM »
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So Kurth still believes in her? Okay, I thought it was strange he'd give up after all this time. And I do not think he controls your mind, that's not what I meant at all.

So let's leave it like this:

You DID post your belief AA was probably Anastasia.

AA DID utter at least one sentence in Russian.

As far as my other posts still being 'horsesh*t', well, I still think that's rude extreme and uncalled for. Hey, we're supposed to call a truce now, it seems unanimous, the only 'horsesh*t' around here is fighting that no one else wants to hear :-/


I can agree with most of this.  Hey!  Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting?  :o  :D
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2005, 10:37:40 AM »
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I can agree with most of this.  Hey!  Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting?  :o  :D


If we stopped,  it would be so unusual I think the rest of the members here would have to wonder if the sky was still blue!  ;)

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2005, 10:41:46 AM »
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  Hey!  Wouldn't it be weird if we had ONE COMPLETE DAY without fighting?  :o  :D

Not weird, but the way it should be. Let's all visualize a complete day without fighting. I mean it.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2005, 10:46:59 AM »
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If we stopped,  it would be so unusual I think the rest of the members here would have to wonder if the sky was still blue!  ;)


Well, I can't promise NEVER to snap again -- I do tend to be quick-tempered (yes, REALLY!  ;D ) -- but I will promise to count to a hundred...

Anyway.  Now I have to get out of here to run errands, and one of the things I have to do is go by my husband's work and scan in the Schanzkowska photos, the Fiat truck, etc.  As I am almost completely electronically-challenged, is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here?  I hate to keep bothering the busy FA  (is it time for another FA Appreciation Day?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2005, 10:47:36 AM »
Imagine, and make it happen!

edit disclaimer: I posted this in response to FA's 'visualize' remark, not Penny's, just didn't want anyone to think I was sniping. Her post came up while I was writing and I just noticed this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2005, 10:47:43 AM »
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...[in part]...



...My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both.  This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.
Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian.  Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.

What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals.  I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions.  So I await that list.  Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.

...



List.  I always like lists.

Isn't that what started this thread in the first place  ;D

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2005, 10:48:52 AM »
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..is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here?


Penny, a very kind soul that I am ;) I will be more than happy to post them for you. Email them to my yahoo address which is listed here.

Helen

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2005, 10:50:20 AM »
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Anyway.  Now I have to get out of here to run errands, and one of the things I have to do is go by my husband's work and scan in the Schanzkowska photos, the Fiat truck, etc.  As I am almost completely electronically-challenged, is there a kind soul to whom I can email these photos for posting here?  I hate to keep bothering the busy FA  (is it time for another FA Appreciation Day?)


Penny, if  you have the scans saved on your computer, you can upload them to photobucket and get a url that will post here! All you have to do is sign up for free, then click the 'browse' button until the pics saved on your computer show up, select the one you want and click 'upload'. When your pic shows up, so will a url for it. Copy and paste that here with the img tags (lower case) and the pics will post!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2005, 10:51:27 AM »
Penny,  e-mail them to me:

BrGldBlue@aol.com

AGRBear

Looks like Helen and I are willing to help but she pushed the post quicker than I.

;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2005, 10:54:55 AM »
If you can email pics, you can upload to photobucket! It's the same thing, the way you attach a file is the same way you upload to photobucket! It's that easy!

(This info for Penny and anyone else wanting to know how to post pics)