Author Topic: AA and the Russian Language  (Read 77491 times)

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Versoix

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #135 on: January 13, 2006, 06:24:38 PM »
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Anastasia Nikolaevna would have no knowledge of military matters.


Umm ... how do we know that? The Tsar was ~very~ involved in military matters, and one assumes that the subject became a particularly hot topic as of August 1914, even for the children. On the other hand, would FS have had much knowledge of military rnatters?

It's a puzzle.

A.L.  

Offline elena_maria_vidal

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #136 on: January 13, 2006, 06:38:59 PM »
Versoix, you show great insight! Thank you!

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #137 on: January 13, 2006, 07:59:44 PM »
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On the other hand, would FS have had much knowledge of military rnatters?

It's a puzzle.

A.L.  


Given the climate of the times and the area that she grew up in, it is likely she knew something of military matters.
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

ChatNoir

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #138 on: January 13, 2006, 09:50:43 PM »
According to Edward Fallows, Anastasia spoke Russian with his Russian-speaking college, Albert F. Coyle. She also tried to teach Adele von Heydebrandt the language. And Nina Chavchavadze said, after meeting her, that: It is not true that she cannot speak Russian.

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Rebecca

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #139 on: January 14, 2006, 02:51:06 AM »
Regarding Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson and Dalldorf where she supposedly was "fluent in Russian". I am still wondering if the statements by the nurses were ever used later, and if they were not, it would be very interesting to know why.

Also:
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ALL the members of the Dalldorf nursing staff could confirm that when Fraulein Unbekannt spoke about Russia, she spoke confidently and precisely.


That is ridiculous, and actually gives less value to these statements. Dalldorf - a mental institution among many in Germany, but "ALL the members of the nursing staff" there had enough knowledge concerning Russia to judge whether Fräulein Unbekannt (Franziska Schanzkowska, later to be known as Anna Anderson), "spoke confidently and precisely" about Russia. Does this deserve belief? No, I do not think so.

Rebecca

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Re: since the Slavic laRe: AA and the Russian Lang
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2006, 03:52:52 AM »
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<<< Whether AA spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. >>>

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, this statement is simply not true. Various of the Slavic languages are close to unintelligible to one another, i.e., they are separate and distinct languages, all descended from Slavonic. French and Romanian are Latin languages: Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.    

<<< Russian belongs to the eastern branch of the family, Polish to the western. As I said before, this division is a matter of dispute and is often said to have only a geographical value. >>>

HORSEFEATHERS.

<<< Anna Anderson's knowledge of Kashubian/Polish could very well explain how she could "understand" Russian, and utter a few words in it >>>

MORE HORSEFEATHERS. Most Poles can't understand Kaschoubian! And the testimony is that AA ~conversed~ in Russian in whole sentences. This doesn't mean that she was ANR, but it probably means she was not FS.  

Alec Lowly




With all due respect, Mr. Versoix, did you read my post at all? I did not say that the Slavic languages are not separate and distinct languages - of course they are. I know perfectly well how they are related to each other, and I also know how Germanic and Roman languages, and for that matter Baltic languages and various others, are related to each other. What I said was, and that is based on what I have read in encyclopedias, books about linguistics and other scientific works, that the Slavic group of languages is rather homogeneous and that the lexicalic and grammatical similarities often are striking. That does not mean that all Slavic languages are immediately mutually intelligible. I also said that the differences between the various Slavic languages are significant but not overwhelming. Please read posts properly.

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Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.


A Frenchman would have some problems understanding a Romanian, while a Portuguese would have lesser problems understanding a Frenchman. A Portuguese and a Spaniard understand each other rather well, and I have both read and been told that quite a number of people with Spanish as their first language understand Italian to some degree. Also, I have a partner at my job who is Romanian and he says he understands Italian rather good; of course I have no possibility to know how much Italian he does understand, but on the other hand, I have no reason at all to doubt what he says. I know perfectly well that English is a Germanic language, Mr. Versoix. English is not my first language - Swedish is. Swedish is a Germanic language too, but maybe you know? Do I understand Dutch? Well, just for fun I read exerpts long ago from The Diary of Anne Frank in Dutch and I understood parts of it. If a person spoke Dutch to me I would understand parts of it, but not as much as I would of the written language, with a lot of effort. I understand Norwegian and Danish perfectly well, especially Norwegian, although I do NOT speak either of them. You should also know, Mr. Versoix, that this is very individual and you can NOT take a  random group of people and expect them all to understand, or not understand, a related language to the exact same degree. This is well known and should be basic knowledge for anyone interested in languages. My brother, for instance, understands Norwegian well, but has big problems understanding Danish.

The question of intelligibility between related languages is very complex, and indeed the degree of ability to understand a language to which one's first language is related is individual. It is a separate topic which does not really belong here.

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MORE HORSEFEATHERS. Most Poles can't understand Kaschoubian! And the testimony is that AA ~conversed~ in Russian in whole sentences. This doesn't mean that she was ANR, but it probably means she was not FS.


Well, for your knowledge, most Poles have not even heard Kashubian. There are several Polish dialects, and most Polish linguists consider Kashubian a Polish dialect. And for that matter, it seems as if the Schankowska siblings did not see any big differences between the two, since one of them said that Franziska Schanzkowska spoke Kashubian and the other one that she spoke Polish . The most divergent dialect of Kashubian, Slovinzian (not to be confused with Slovene/Slovenian), is since long extinct.

"Converse" is a matter of perception, as is "whole sentences". I take these statements with a huge pinch of salt, as it is a fact that Anna Anderson later never spoke Russian, except for some occasionally uttered or blurted words or sentences.

Anyway, this discussion is actually of no use, since it has been proven by science (do you believe science, Mr. Versoix?) that Anna Anderson was indeed not Anastasia Nicholaievna, but Franziska Schanzkowska. To me the case is closed, science has proved the truth. I have spent parts of this morning (it is late morning now where I live) reading various threads and topics in this section of The Alexander Palace Discussion Board and I now understand that I should not have bothered to post at all, since all questions regarding Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson seem to have been answered over and over again and there seems to be nothing more to add, not to speak of the fact that it seems to be absolutely impossible to convince the people who believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nicholaievna (or that she was not Franziska Schanzkowska) that they are wrong.

Lastly, Mr. Versoix, you did say "with all due respect" in your post, but in fact you were rude and indeed unnecessarily so. I have no interest what so ever in netfighting with anyone, including you, and if things can not be discussed in a civil manner I am not interested at all in taking part in any discussion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Rebecca »

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #141 on: January 14, 2006, 09:35:41 AM »
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Also:

That is ridiculous, and actually gives less value to these statements. Dalldorf - a mental institution among many in Germany, but "ALL the members of the nursing staff" there had enough knowledge concerning Russia to judge whether Fräulein Unbekannt (Franziska Schanzkowska, later to be known as Anna Anderson), "spoke confidently and precisely" about Russia. Does this deserve belief? No, I do not think so.


Excellent point!!!

I just wish people would except the findings of DNA test i.e that AA/FS (whatever you want to call her) was a fake :)
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Offline elfwine

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2006, 09:38:10 AM »
Please folks...STOP THIS!
   Look, I speak Russian with a fairly good accent [or so I am told] however I am just learning this language so I cannot do much but understand bits of other peoples overheard conversations...
   Sadly we still only have hearsay to go on.  I am not a philologist and I never heard Anastasia Manahan speak, so I am just trying to find the facts...Is  that is all right .... or am I NOT being polite enough?
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Rebecca

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Re: since the Slavic laRe: AA and the Russian Lang
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2006, 10:19:46 AM »
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Dear Rebecca,

     My -- aren't we sensitive! What would be really rude would be for me to ignore your post. It's odd, but you've confirmed much that I had to say. When you find an English speaker who can understand Dutch at first hearing or first sight, please let me know. A Frenchman would have extraordinary problems understanding Romanian; an Italian, much less so. Spanish and Portuguese are closely related. Swedish is closer to Dutch than English. I know more about Polish and its variants than you realize. Yes, it's certainly true that some people are better at languages than others.
     In my opinion, it has ~not~ been definitively proven that AA was not ANR or that she was FS. Frankly, I don't know who AA was, but testing done in the early '90s using a 6-point Short Tandem Repeat isn't much evidence today, when 20-point STR is the standard and exponentially more accurate. The 6-point STR yields a high rate of false positives and false negatives. That's a fact. You don't have to believe me -- go do some research.
     I'm new to this board and haven't yet had the time to visit the DNA threads. I'm looking forward to that.
Cheers,
Alec Lowly





Mr. Versoix. Why should I not be sensitive when someone is verbally condescending towards me? But let us not pursue this subject, as it is useless.

Reading your last post has made me sure that you, again, have not read my post properly. I have made no statements about English persons understanding Dutch. I am not sure of what exactly you mean by understanding. Do you suggest that it has to be a 100% degree of understanding, and nothing else counts?

I do not know if you are deliberately misunderstanding me, or what you are trying to do. Yes, Swedish is closer to Dutch than English - and English is closer to Dutch than Swedish, consequently. And I have never stated that there is a mutual intelligibility among ALL related languages. But in many cases there is enough mutual intelligibility to give a person a notion of what the other person is talking about. My own polyglot grandmother was an example of this.

I have not said that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson fully understood Russian but because of the fact that she did speak Kashubian and/or Polish she would certainly understand enough to get a notion of what the person speaking in Russian was talking about. A notion which she later improved she found out that it was not going to be as easy as she might have thought to go out and claim to be the murdered Anastasia Nicholaievna.

This comparison is all I could find at short notice, but please take a look and see if the similarities between Polish and Russian are striking (which I think they are) or if they as you said in a previous post, "aren't all that mutually comprehensible". It is the first line of the Lord's Prayer (I assume you are Christian; I'm not):

Russian: Otiets nash kotory yesi na nyebesakh
Polish: Ojcze nasz, który jest w niebie

I beg for indulgence with my Russian spelling; the text was originally written in the Cyrillic alphabeth and I am not very good at transliterating it.

Now - are the similarities apparent or are they not comprehensible?

I do not question you when you say that you know more about Polish and its variants than I realize. Most likely it is so.

Please do read the threads that are on the DNA subject. You will find many VERY informative and knowledgeable postings there, made by people who know far more about this than I do. May I recommend especially the Forum Admin's posts where he explains that he has been in contact with experts and asked them if the DNA-testings from the 1990's are indeed accurate, as the pro-Anna-Andersons repeadetly claim. Postings by Helen_A and Annie are also very informative and interesting. Read carefully.

But of course, you could be one of those people who know more than science since science does not always produce the results or answers that you want. I do not know if you are. I am not.

With this, I consider this discussion as ended, as I have no interest in continuing discussing with rude persons. Have a nice day, Mr. Versoix. If you have anything more of interest to say to me, please feel free to send me a private message. Good bye.

Rebecca

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2006, 10:25:00 AM »
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Excellent point!!!

I just wish people would except the findings of DNA test i.e that AA/FS (whatever you want to call her) was a fake :)



I agree totally. I do not really understand their motives. I am quite sure they would accept DNA-results in any other given case, but not in this. It is unbelievable.  ??? :P ::)

Offline Lyss

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2006, 10:30:25 AM »
I'm realy sorry, but I'm gonne mingle in this conversation.
I'm bilingual Polish-Dutch. I also speak English, French, Spanish and am now learning Russian.
My father lives in the "Kaszuby".
I don't understand Kaszubian, not a single bit. I tried to read a Kaszubian text, but I just don't understand the dialect.
As for Russian, my Polish didn't give me an advance on the course. I must amit, when some words were spoken I could guess their meaning, but it's since I finished my first level that I actualy understand some parts of Rusian conversations.
I have family in Sweden, Dutch and Swedish are less alike than the Antwerp dialect and Swedish. (And I'm not the only one who claims this, coming from Antwerp)
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Rebecca

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2006, 10:40:07 AM »
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I'm realy sorry, but I'm gonne mingle in this conversation.
I'm bilingual Polish-Dutch. I also speak English, French, Spanish and am now learning Russian.
My father lives in the "Kaszuby".
I don't understand Kaszubian, not a single bit. I tried to read a Kaszubian text, but I just don't understand the dialect.
As for Russian, my Polish didn't give me an advance on the course. I must amit, when some words were spoken I could guess their meaning, but it's since I finished my first level that I actualy understand some parts of Rusian conversations.
I have family in Sweden, Dutch and Swedish are less alike than the Antwerp dialect and Swedish. (And I'm not the only one who claims this, coming from Antwerp)



Yes, Lyss, but this is your individual experience. It might not be the same with Franziska Schanzkowska, who could have had a special gift when it came to understanding languages. I have had and still have some Polish friends who say that they can understand Russian partly, depending sometimes on the subject.

I am sorry, but I do not know the Antwerp dialect, so I can not take stand in this matter. All I can say is that when I have read texts in Dutch I have understood parts of it, and when I hear songs sung in Dutch, I also understand parts of them. Maybe it is just me, but I do not think so.

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2006, 11:48:08 AM »
Versoix,
Your postings about the DNA unreliability are removed as they violate Forum rules. The DNA testing is NOT unreliable using the older method. The fact that newer testing has increased the sensitivity does not lessen the effectiveness of the origial testing. The AA sample had FIVE points of difference from the Alexandra maternal line. The new 20 point STR wont CHANGE that at all...UNLESS you cite and/or provide specific peer review journal published information that specifically STATES and proves the claim of unreliability, such statements are removed without notice. Further, the Japanese testing has already been proven in peer review work as has the putative GD Elisabeth finger testing to be incorrect and wholly unreliable. They also may not be cited here to question the Gill work.

As you are a new user, I have taken the time to make this clear, but be advised that this rule is STRICTLY observed in here.

Offline Grand_Duke_Paul

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2006, 08:18:38 PM »
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I've been a little hesitant to read Kurth because of the bias towards AA he is known for.  I doubt it provides an even handed look at the situation and takes everything into account, so I stay away from it.  For me, since I'm anti-AA (in the sense that she is not AN) it would be like reading 'Mein Kampf" in order to change my mind about how evil Hitler was.  

And, no, I am not in any way comparing AA to Hitler.  She is not evil, she is not a deviant dictator, I do not blame her for WWII or the concentration camps nor do I blame her for the fall of Rome or the sinking of the Titanic.  There, that disclaimer should cover it.  


Tsarina Liz,

I appreciate the candor, but please take a chance and read the book, just for the sources it uses.  While I agree that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia N., this book in my opinion offers an insightful look at her life and the case.  While it may be biased in the sense that he knew & believed Anna Anderson Manahan, at least he uses reliable, and verifiable source material, which you said earlier on a different thread that you were looking for.  

Some of the other books such as Klier & Mingay's doesn't doucument in detail the sources as Kurth's does, while I am not deriding their book, I wish they had been more forthcoming in some areas with their source material.  

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Offline Georgiy

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #149 on: January 15, 2006, 02:21:56 PM »
I haven't had any experience with Polish, but while we were without a Priest would attend Liturgy at the Serbian Church. During the Sermon, I could understand little bits. My Russian friends, once they got used to it, could understand fairly well, but there are many 'false friends' words that come from the same source but have completely different meanings in the two languages as they evolved away from each other. Another time, I was watching a movie on TV in Sweden. It was subtitled as movies tend to be there, and I was listening and kind of reading at the same time when I noticed that the actor did not use the words that appeared on the subtitles. Up until that point I'd assumed it was a Swedish movie as I had been understanding it fairly well (Swedish is another language I speak). The movie was in fact Norwegian. I expect Sweish and Norwegian are much closer than Russian and Polish, but really I don't think one would have to be a linguistic genius to be able to understand a language closely related to ones own if one has been exposed to it and had some experience of hearing it and getting used to the slight changes in sound.


English, with the great vowel shift is a different matter. While the written words look quite close, and the language is of course close to Dutch, Friesian, German and the Scandinavian languages, the complete shift in vowels make it difficult for one to catch the gist of these languages aurally without having studied them.