Author Topic: AA and the Russian Language  (Read 77277 times)

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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #150 on: January 16, 2006, 09:16:32 AM »
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Tsarina Liz,

I appreciate the candor, but please take a chance and read the book, just for the sources it uses. While I agree that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia N., this book in my opinion offers an insightful look at her life and the case. While it may be biased in the sense that he knew & believed Anna Anderson Manahan, at least he uses reliable, and verifiable source material, which you said earlier on a different thread that you were looking for.

Some of the other books such as Klier & Mingay's doesn't doucument in detail the sources as Kurth's does, while I am not deriding their book, I wish they had been more forthcoming in some areas with their source material.

The Riddle Of Anna Anderson can probably be found very inexpensive on Half.com


They've got it at the local library, no way am I buying the biased dreck.  And I will be checking the sources simply out of skepticism  ;)  
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #151 on: January 16, 2006, 02:26:58 PM »
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I haven't had any experience with Polish, but while we were without a Priest would attend Liturgy at the Serbian Church. During the Sermon, I could understand little bits. My Russian friends, once they got used to it, could understand fairly well, but there are many 'false friends' words that come from the same source but have completely different meanings in the two languages as they evolved away from each other. Another time, I was watching a movie on TV in Sweden. It was subtitled as movies tend to be there, and I was listening and kind of reading at the same time when I noticed that the actor did not use the words that appeared on the subtitles. Up until that point I'd assumed it was a Swedish movie as I had been understanding it fairly well (Swedish is another language I speak). The movie was in fact Norwegian. I expect Sweish and Norwegian are much closer than Russian and Polish, but really I don't think one would have to be a linguistic genius to be able to understand a language closely related to ones own if one has been exposed to it and had some experience of hearing it and getting used to the slight changes in sound.


English, with the great vowel shift is a different matter. While the written words look quite close, and the language is of course close to Dutch, Friesian, German and the Scandinavian languages, the complete shift in vowels make it difficult for one to catch the gist of these languages aurally without having studied them.




I studied English at school, which makes it impossible for me to determine how much of it I would have understood if I had not studied it, but I would agree with you - the special pronounciation of the vowels in English makes it quite different from other Germanic languages (although I think that Frisian, that is the variety of Frisian spoken in parts of the Netherlands, is considered to be closest to English). A good example of this is knife, which is kniv in Swedish. Knife - Kniv, they do look alike. Everybody here knows how knife is pronounced. Kniv, the Swedish word, is pronounced approximately k-n-ee-v. The two words are very different when pronounced.

"False friends" are legio in Swedish and Norwegian. ;D You have to be aware of them to avoid funny or embarrassing misunderstandings. One of the best known false friends is the adjective rolig, which means fun, enjoyable in Swedish but calm, peaceful in Norwegian. :D

I agree very much with your post. I also think that exposure to related languages is an important factor in this, and although I have not found the village where Franziska Schanzkowska was born on the map, I know approximately where it is. It would not be surprising if she had some exposure to Russian.

Talar du svenska, Georgiy? Det var trevligt att hra, och vldigt verraskande.  :)

Offline Georgiy

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #152 on: January 16, 2006, 02:38:08 PM »
Ja, jag talar svenska. Men kanske inte saa bra nufoertiden.... :(

Rebecca

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #153 on: January 16, 2006, 02:46:07 PM »
Jag har i alla fall ingenting att anmrka p de bda meningarna. :)


Sorry to go off topic, but I could not help myself..  :-X :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Rebecca »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2006, 12:19:37 PM »
I knew I had read there was tie into the Dutch language.  Here is the post:

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Here at 12:47 a m June17, 2005, I find myself seeing these posts for the first time. I have not finished reading them all.

That said, I should point out what some of my subsequent investigation has disclosed that might be of interest.

The "Polish" family from which Karl Maucher is purported (but not scientifically proved) to descend was actually of Frisian origin, Mennonites, who settled in and drained the lowlands of that area of Poland. These were Kashuban ((Kaszubski) who spoke a dialect of Old Dutch. So, Polish data bases (unless from descendents of those same settlors) would not be any more applicable than other Caucasians.

That family was extensively researched in a German Eugenics study made in the '40s re: Inherited Criminality (none found).


I will try to add more later this day

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Offline Lyss

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #155 on: January 22, 2006, 03:16:59 PM »
The Kaszubian word for yes is not the Polish "tak" but "ja" what means "I" in Polish but "yes in German and Dutch". I always thouhgt it was some "left over" of Geramany
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #156 on: January 22, 2006, 04:14:47 PM »
Regardless of what Mr Richard Schweitzer says, Kashubian is and has always been a Slavic language - with many German loanwords of course. I do not think there is even one serious linguist who would say that it has its origin in "Old Dutch". ::)

Mennonites? I am not very familiar with their history, but I am sure their history do not go further back than the birth of Protestantism (as they are Protestants), which means about half a milennium ago. The Kashubians and their language is actually MUCH older than that... The oldest written proof of their existance in the area they inhabit dates from 1238 - and back then there were no Mennonites.

About the word "ja". It means "yes" in Swedish too. In Kashubian it is obviously a loanword from German. In Romanian the word for "yes" is "da", like in most Slavic languages. Does that make Romanian a Slavic language? No, of course not - because "da" is a loanword. I am mentioning this only as a comparison. (Maybe I should add, to avoid misunderstandings, that Romanian is a Romance language, which means it is descended from Latin).

Rebecca

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2006, 04:37:08 PM »
I have done a quick research on the history of the Mennonites. Their name is derived from the name of the founder of the Mennonite movement, Menno Simons, who lived 1496-1561. Some Mennonites did settle in northern Poland in the late 1500's to escape from persecutions in the Netherlands. It is not impossible at all that there was some intermarriage with the Kashubians. But whether there was or was not, is not relevant in the question of the origin of the Kashubians and their language, since the small number of Mennonites settled in this area more than 300 years later than the first written proof about the Kashubians (1238; and it is safe to assume that by 1238 the Kashubians had lived there for centuries already).  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2006, 06:25:31 PM »
I didn't mean to deny the information given about FS's Slavic origin, I just remembered I had read it, it [the Dutch part] had stuck in my head, as it had others, so, now that little tiny mystery is solved.

Oh, almost forgot. There was a large wave of Mennonites who migr. into Russia in the early 1800s. I have more information around here if anyone needs it.

AGRBear

PS  I assume when Richard Schweitzer did his early research on FS's family that his information was limited,  unlike today,  where we have the access to all the latest data.  Most of the languages of the world have been reexaimined and many views have seen changes because of the use of computers and people who are thinking outside the box.  Earlier many of the researchers had been confined to earlier limitations in this field for various reasons.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline EPHMOC

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Re: since the Slavic laRe: AA and the Russian Lang
« Reply #159 on: May 07, 2007, 06:56:22 PM »
Hi! Since I'm a Pole, and I think I can add something to this topic...


I have not said that Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson fully understood Russian but because of the fact that she did speak Kashubian and/or Polish she would certainly understand enough to get a notion of what the person speaking in Russian was talking about.

It's not certain. Poles usually don't understand Kashubian at all. Of course - they can understand some words, but the can also understand some in French, German etc. But most of Poles (who don't have Kashubian roots) can't understand a longer utterance in Kashubian.

Russian was compulsory in polish schools AFTER WWII - that's why novadays many (esp. older) Poles can understant it. But many younger pepole in Poland have serius difficulties in understand longer utterence in Russian...

Secondly, Borowy Las (FS's birthplace) was NEVER under Russian influence... Most Kashiubians hardly ever met any Russians at that time... Seldom did they have any opportunities to hear Russian...

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This comparison is all I could find at short notice, but please take a look and see if the similarities between Polish and Russian are striking (which I think they are) or if they as you said in a previous post, "aren't all that mutually comprehensible". It is the first line of the Lord's Prayer (I assume you are Christian; I'm not):

Russian: Otiets nash kotory yesi na nyebesakh

Polish: Ojcze nasz, ktry jest w niebie

I beg for indulgence with my Russian spelling; the text was originally written in the Cyrillic alphabeth and I am not very good at transliterating it.

Now - are the similarities apparent or are they not comprehensible?

My point is that Kashubian is NOT so similar to Polish than you think, and also that Russian is NOT so simmilar to Polish as you think, but EVEN IF we agree than they are, we can NOT say that Kashibuian is similar to Russian. It's a logical fallacy... (A can be like B, B can be like C, but it doesn't mean that A is like C...)

About Pater Noster...

That's Russian transliteriation:

tče na, sčij na nebesch!
Da svjattsja mja Tvoj;
Da prijt crstvie Tvoj;
Da bdet vlja Tvoj i na zeml, kak na nbe.
Chleb na nasčnyj daj nam na sej den';
I prost nam dolgi ni,
kak i my pročem dolnikam naim.
I ne vved nas v iskunie,
no izbv' nas ot lukvogo.

kashiubian version:

jcze nasz, jaczi jes w niebie,
niech s swicy Twje miono,
niech przińdze Twje krlestw,
niech mdze Twja wl
jakno w niebie tak tż na zemi.
Chleba najg pwszedng dj nm dzys
i dpsc nm naje win,
jak i m dpszcziwm naszim winowajcm.
A nie dopsc na nas pkszeni,
ale nas zbawi de złg.

SOME words ARE similar indeed... but most are not! As a Pole a can understand second, but have problems with first...

(sorry for my bad English...  ;))

Offline EPHMOC

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #160 on: May 07, 2007, 07:52:32 PM »
Many Poles grew up having learned the Russian language in school,

Yes, but only under Russian occupation and after WWII...

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since the borders were changing all the time and many parts of Poland often would become parts of Russia and then change again.

It abslolutely not the case - Poland was partitioned between Austia, Germany, Russia by the end of XVIII century... Again in 1939...

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Is there any way to find out if the area where FS grew up (I think it was Pomerania?) ever taught the Russian language to the children in schools?

Pomerania (esp. Borowy Las in Bytw area) was NEVER a part of Russia... It was a part of Germany... Poles living there were strongly germanized...

Bytw district (germ. Landkreis Btow) was a part of Prussia (later Germany) from 1773 till 1945... I can see no reason to think that FS had to learn Russian at school or at home... ;)

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It's possible that this was the case

It's unlikely...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 08:19:19 PM by EPHMOC »

Offline Lemur

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2007, 02:00:34 PM »
Many Poles grew up having learned the Russian language in school,

Yes, but only under Russian occupation and after WWII...

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since the borders were changing all the time and many parts of Poland often would become parts of Russia and then change again.

It abslolutely not the case - Poland was partitioned between Austia, Germany, Russia by the end of XVIII century... Again in 1939...


Isn't that what she said, that the boundaries kept changing?

Wasn't the Tsar's hunting lodge in Poland where Alexei was hurt (Spala) under Russian rule?

Offline EPHMOC

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2007, 03:25:39 PM »

Isn't that what she said, that the boundaries kept changing?

They did not KEPT changing - it's not true that "the borders were changing all the time" and that "many parts of Poland OFTEN would become parts of Russia and then change again". Poland was partitioned by the end od 17th century then reemerged in 1918.

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Wasn't the Tsar's hunting lodge in Poland where Alexei was hurt (Spala) under Russian rule?

Yes it was - continuously since the begining of 18th century (till 1918 of course)

Remember we are talking about Bytw district which hadn't been within polish boundaries since 1657 befor it was incorporated into Polad in 1945
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 03:45:43 PM by EPHMOC »

Offline EPHMOC

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Re: since the Slavic laRe: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2007, 08:21:19 AM »
<<< Whether AA spoke Kashubian or Polish is not important in this matter. Both are Slavic languages; if Kashubian is a separate language or a Polish dialect is also uninteresting in this matter. The Slavic languages is a language group of about 15 languages. It is usually divided into east, west and south Slavic languages. However, the value of this division on a linguistic basis is disputable, since the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous. The differences between them are significant but not overwhelming. >>>

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, this statement is simply not true. Various of the Slavic languages are close to unintelligible to one another, i.e., they are separate and distinct languages, all descended from Slavonic. French and Romanian are Latin languages: Do you think a Frenchman would understand a Romanian, or a speaker of Portuguese a Frenchman? For that matter, English is a Germanic language, as is Dutch: Do you understand Dutch? The fact is, Russian and Polish aren't all that mutually comprehensible.    

I agree with Versoix - saying that "the Slavic languages are rather homogeneous" is ridiculous. They may seem homogeneous for non-Slavonic people. For Slavonic people Latin languages may seem "rather homogeneous". (BTW for many white people Chinese, Korean or Japan people are all alike ;) ) Division into east, west and south Slavic languages is not insignificant - eg. Poles do not understant Bulgarians nor Croatians (I'm not speaking about understanding seperate words or GUESSING general subject of speach/text). To claim that diffrences between Kashubian nad Russian are "significant but not overwhelming" is not more reasonabale than the claim that differences between French and Portuguese "are significant but not overwhelming"...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 08:27:00 AM by EPHMOC »

Offline Lemur

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2007, 09:09:53 AM »
EPHMOC, what is the purpose of all these things you are posting? Are you saying that Andersen wasn't Schanskowska and was the Grand Duchess Anastasia?