Author Topic: AA and the Russian Language  (Read 79435 times)

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Offline EPHMOC

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #180 on: May 17, 2007, 02:07:56 PM »
It seems to me that you were wrong - Wiscek is NOT a root of Wójcik, but its germanised version...

You've actually wrote that Wojcik/Wojeik changed to Wiscek. Sorry for that...

But do you know anything about relation between Wiscek and Więcek family name (popular mostly in Upper Silesia and Lesser Poland) or Wicek (most common in Gdańsk)?

By the way - do you know that quite a few Szankowskis are living in Kujawy (southern Pomerania)?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 02:35:42 PM by EPHMOC »

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #181 on: May 17, 2007, 06:40:05 PM »
Jermaine, if you're going to bring up languages, you must also consider the language evidence AGAINST her. There is really no documented proof she spoke or was even competant in Russian, did anyone ever give her a school type test? Even during the lenghty trial? She knew absolutely no French, and her English was atrocious. She seemed to have learned all these bits and pieces of languages as her claim accelerated, probably with the help of supporters a la 'My Fair Lady.' German seemed to be her most fluent language. We also don't know if all of those reports from individuals- which is really all we have- are truthful or accurate. If you believe them all, and you're making a list, you should also consider Felix Yussopov saying he spoke to her in English, Russian, French and German and she only responded to the German, and the people who swore they heard her yell out in Polish in a church in Virginia in her old age. There's just way too much he said she said for me for the language thing to hold much water either way.

If we were using languages to contradict her being AN, I could post a lot more.

I have question for you though, if you don't think she was FS, why did her DNA match FS's nephew with 99.9% certainty? Why did FS vanish, never to be found again, in the same time and place as AA appeared? How can you explain how she closely resembles the picture of FS? Don't you think there's quite a bit of evidence she was FS, and nothing to really discount it?




Offline Belochka

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #182 on: May 17, 2007, 07:02:08 PM »
Personally, I've never bought the whole story of AA being Anastasia. The first photos of AA don't look like AN to me, better yet I
I also believe that AA could speak Russian, but refused to on demmand.

Mrs Manahan may have understood some Russian, but her "refusal" to return conversations in Russian pointed towards her inadequacy in the use of a language that was not her mother tongue.

Other people seem to enjoy offering excuses on her behalf why that lady refused to converse in Russian. Unfortunately they refuse to understand the obvious. The lady lived a lie that others had created for her, while others today enjoy perpetuating the same.

Margarita


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #183 on: May 18, 2007, 02:33:38 PM »
Personally, I've never bought the whole story of AA being Anastasia. The first photos of AA don't look like AN to me, better yet I
I also believe that AA could speak Russian, but refused to on demmand.

Mrs Manahan may have understood some Russian, but her "refusal" to return conversations in Russian pointed towards her inadequacy in the use of a language that was not her mother tongue.

Other people seem to enjoy offering excuses on her behalf why that lady refused to converse in Russian. Unfortunately they refuse to understand the obvious. The lady lived a lie that others had created for her, while others today enjoy perpetuating the same.

Margarita


I believe,  during the process of AA's trial,  one or more judges went to AA and conversed with her  in the languages which GD Anastasia was said to have known.  This included Russian.   The judge/  judges found her ability to understand  proper Russian was acceptable.   I don't recall if she answered in Russian or  High German.  If it was good enough for the judge/ judges,  why do some of you continue to have doubts?

And,  the one nurse,  who've I've mention many times on other threads,  was a German-Russian,  who and migr. to Berlin area and  was working in Dalldorf,  spoke to AA in Russian.  AA did speak to her in Russian.   And,  it was the nurse's opinion that AA knew proper Russian.  Why was the nurse an execllent witness?  Because she taught Russian while living in Russia.  Remember she was a Russian,  with German heritage.   Also,  this nurse knew Russia and it's politics.  They spoke often about the news and  the nurse was impressed about AA's knowledge.   AND,  she repeated all of this in AA's trial.  And,  as far as I know,  no one discredited this woman's testimony.

So,  we have a witness back in 1921  and we have the German judge/ judges during the trial..... 

Please remember,  I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia.  But facts are facts.  And,  so,  it seems,  somewhere at sometime AA learned proper Russian.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 02:48:52 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #184 on: May 18, 2007, 02:43:37 PM »

I have question for you though, if you don't think she was FS, why did her DNA match FS's nephew with 99.9% certainty? Why did FS vanish, never to be found again, in the same time and place as AA appeared? How can you explain how she closely resembles the picture of FS? Don't you think there's quite a bit of evidence she was FS, and nothing to really discount it?



There are threads where I and other posters have discussed or  thoughts.   

Here,  we are talking about AA and the Russian language,  which she seemed to have known well enough to have convinced  the  judge/ judges during her court case and a nurse at Dalldorf.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 02:48:08 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Bob_the_builder

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #185 on: May 18, 2007, 06:37:42 PM »
I think AA probably understood the Russian language, but couldn't speak it.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #186 on: May 26, 2007, 02:00:36 PM »
Then you don't believe the people who claimed AA talked to them in proper Russian?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Bob_the_builder

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #187 on: May 26, 2007, 06:10:55 PM »
Then you don't believe the people who claimed AA talked to them in proper Russian?

AGRBear
Who exactly heard AA speak Russian other than that lady in the asulym who said she spoke it in her sleep?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #188 on: May 27, 2007, 10:03:05 AM »
This is what Penny Wilson wrote when Annie asked this queston:

In response to a post from Annie on one of these threads a few days ago, I said I would draw up a list of people who testified that Anna Anderson/Fraulein Unbekannt was entirely and fluently conversant in Russia.  I am still compiling a general list of those people, but in the meantime, here is a shorter list.  Just three people.  All of them came out in opposition to Anna Anderson, yet all of them testified that she spoke and understood Russian:

Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna
Princess Nina Georgievna of Russia
Pierre Gillia... [ in part]....

So there you go, Annie --  and I went you one better by giving you three people who didn't recognize AA as AN, yet testified that she understood and spoke Russian.  So is your contention now that Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard are liars, or is it your contention that they were somehow mistaken?  And if either of these, what does that say about
their veracity regarding their claims about the case in general?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #189 on: May 27, 2007, 10:05:07 AM »
.... [in part]...
I got this information from the trial transcripts.  As for your other questions, I would imagine the answers are now self-evident.

Olga Alexandrovna:

Questioned by Judge Backen in Toronto, June 11, 1959

Backen: While you were with the plaintiff, in what language did you converse?
OA: German.
Backen: Did you ask if she spoke Russian?
OA: Of course, but she apparently did not wish to do so. Backen: Did she not speak Russian at all during your interview?
OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard, but would say no more.
Backen: And was her Russian grammatical?
OA: Yes.
Backen: She said no more in Russian other than a few sentences to Madame Gilliard?
OA: No.  She understood the language, as she answered questions posed to her in Russian in German but, despite my requests, she would not converse with any of us in Russian.

Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 38

Gilliard:

Questioned by Judge Werkmeister of the Hamburg Tribunal, 1 April, 1958

Werkmeister: During your meetings with the Plantiff, what languages were used?
Gilliard: German.
Werkmeister: Only German?
Gilliard: Well, some English.
Werkmeister: And nothing more?
Gilliard.  No, it's as I wrote in my book [Gilliard had brought with him a copy of his "La Fausse Anastasie"].
Werkmeister: Again, Monsieur Gilliard, the material in your book is not evidence.
Gilliard: But it's what happened.
Werkmeister: And what of the information presented by Dr. Vermehren [Accounts of the meetings, including letters from Danish Ambassador Herluf Zahle that declared AA had spoken in English and in Russian] on this issue?
Gilliard: I don't recall.
Werkmeister: Please try to recall, Monsieur.  Is the evidence presented by Dr. Vermehren on the issue of languages spoken accurate or inaccurate?
Gilliard: She might have replied to my wife in Russian.
Werkmeister: To your wife?
Gilliard: Yes.  During a conversation with the Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] the claimant interrupted and said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In Russian?
Gilliard: It has been so long ago...
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff say something to your wife in Russian or not, Monsieur?
Gilliard: A sentence perhaps.
Werkmeister: You understand, Monsieur, that the claim has been made that the Plaintiff could not speak Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And is this claim accurate or not?
Gilliard: As I wrote in my book....
Werkmeister: Monsieur, I remind you again, your book is not evidence in this case.
Gilliard: She said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In what language?
Gilliard: In Russian.
Werkmeister: You heard the Plaintiff speak to your wife in Russian?
Gilliard: Only a sentence.
Werkmeister: But you heard this?
Gilliard: Yes.  But she would not again speak it.
Werkmeister: You have previously stated, Monsieur, that the Plaintiff did not speak or understand Russian.  Do you wish to amend your previous statement?
Gilliard: No.
Werkmeister: Monsieur, may I remind you that you are under oath?  I again ask if you wish to correct your previous statement?
Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife.  I do not consider that linguistic ability.
Werkmeister: We are not going to argue semantics, Monsieur.  I believe that portions of the conversation in question took place in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: And the Plaintiff did not engage in this conversation?
Gilliard: She would answer certain questions posed her, but only in German.
Werkmeister: Were these questions posed in Russian, or in German?
Gilliard: Both languages.
Werkmeister: Did the Plaintiff answer questions posed her in Russian in German?
Gilliard: That is so.
Werkmeister: And you say she answered these questions?
Gilliard: Only in German.
Werkmeister: But they were posed her in Russian?
Gilliard: Yes.
Werkmeister: So she understand Russian?
Gilliard: She would not speak it.
Werkmeister: That is not the question, Monsieur, and you have already conceded that she spoke it with your wife. Now, did she understand the Russian language?
Gilliard: Yes.

Source:

Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 27.

Princess Nina Georgievna:

"Whoever she is, she is no Polish peasant.  She is a lady of good society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."

Source: Princess Nina to Peter Kurth, as quoted in Kurth, 217.


Quote
But again, it doesn't matter whether Franziska Schanskowska spoke what language or not, she still wasn't Anastasia.

Moving the goal-posts, Annie?  You keep repeating that Fraulein Unbekannt/Anna Anderson could not speak or understand Russian -- which would be an item held in common with Franziska Schanzkowska, and therefore a "point" for your "side."  I have now shown this assertion not to be true, and the truth came from people who denied the claim.

You really shouldn't make these continued incorrect assertions about AA when you haven't even done the basic work of reading through the Hamburg transcripts -- which are able to disprove so much of what you contend.

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #190 on: May 27, 2007, 10:10:34 AM »
Quote

Hi Penny,

This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.

Hi, Belochka! :)  See my various responses below...

Quote

a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"

compare to:

b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife.  I do not consider that linguistic ability."

Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?

No-nothing is mentioned in the transcript, but I only read through and translated from German the most relevant portions, so it might have been pursued later.

Quote
OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.

They were-in the context of the transcript-it refers to Olga's visit with AA with the Gilliards.

Quote
A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.

And Russian-both in questions asked and in the remarks to Shura.

Quote
My other questions are:

Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:

1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?

Maybe, but I doubt it.  I would have to look but I don't believe it is mentioned in this context.  There might be references in other materials.

Quote
2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?

Ditto.

Quote
The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.

The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.

Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.

Agreed.  My point is to correct the canard that is continually repeated that AA never spoke or understood Russian -- clearly, she did both.  This, coupled with the depositions of more than a dozen parties who stated that she spoke Russian, should end the issue.

Quote
Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?

At great length, but I don't recall where or in what volume they are.

Quote
From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.

Again, my point is that the continued assertions that she could not speak or understand Russian is false; I consider these statements, along with the statements of many more (like the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who conversed with her in Russian and was convinced that, whoever she was, she was a lady of good Russian society), to be evidence that she WAS fluent in Russian.  Given the number of statements and the wide variety of those involved-including many who did not support her claim-I think the most weight has to be given to the belief that she was fluent.

What I would like, now, is to ask those who contend she could not speak Russian, or could not understand it, to post rebuttals.  I am only interested in the statements of those who met her, not second-hand assertions.  So I await that list.  Please provide sources as I have done, so that their accuracy can be analyzed.

Quote
It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.

Finally,

Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?

This happened frequently, and many examples exist in the court records-page after page of her Russian.  We even have some of these.  To obtain a better selection, the Court looked at a number of samples, including letters, postcards, etc., that spanned a number of years, including the 1920s.  These were analyzed by both handwriting experts, who concluded that AA's writing matched that of Anastasia, and linguistic experts, who found no errors or
mistakes.

Quote
Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.

Your replies to these questions will be appreciated. :)

No problem!  I hope that my answers have been helpful...

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #191 on: May 27, 2007, 10:12:05 AM »
Repeating  Penny's information  because Penny's posts  have some of the answers you've been asking.

Penny is the one who started this thread because so many of us had questions about  AA's abilit to understand and speak Russian.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 10:21:14 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Bob_the_builder

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #192 on: May 28, 2007, 12:19:47 AM »
Thanks AGRBear. But what I don't understand is if she knew so much Russian, why did she not speak it at the one time she appeared at court?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #193 on: May 28, 2007, 11:24:09 AM »
Thanks AGRBear. But what I don't understand is if she knew so much Russian, why did she not speak it at the one time she appeared at court?

I believe  Peter Kurth or someone else who knew her  has already told us and  a poster can send me the source and I'll be  happy to post what AA said and the source.   

AGRBear

 
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: AA and the Russian Language
« Reply #194 on: June 03, 2007, 05:16:43 PM »
The story about FS/Anna Anderson speaking Polish relates to a lecture she attended at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts on Faberge,  She was there with John Manahan.  During the lecture she started loudly talking in Polish and the whole room could hear her.  There were several native Poles there and they said she was obviously a native Polish speaker.  This should not surprise anyone because FS/Anna was Polish.

Anna Anderson would not have a conversation in Russian with native speakers who could expose her.  She never spoke Russian with Gleb Botkin and this troubled even him.  The truth is obvious.

The Romanov family told me there were was  more evidence that convinced them that FS/Anna was not a daughter of the Tsar.  I have posted this before but when Olga entered the chapel of the hospital with FS/Anna she crossed herself instinctively like the Catholic FS/Anna was.  No Orthodox person would have done this Olga said.  Also, the family was having the family dentist visit FS/Anna in the same hospital to check her teeth against the teeth of Anastasia.  Is it any surprise that FS/Anna suddenly had all her teeth pulled when she knew he was coming?  There's more.  I wish the family had published all of this.  I suppose they felt sorry for her and they thought it was beneath their dignity to be involved with or validate this con anymore than they had to.

Bob