Author Topic: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna  (Read 224347 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2004, 11:05:54 AM »
Quote

There are those who are still crying conspiracy in the testing.  Well, I soppose it is remotely possible, but not the least bit probable.  People being what they are, SOMEONE would have talked somewhere, you know?


If more people really understood DNA evidence, it would become really clear to them that these conspiracies are pretty much impossible. I think the problem is that many people just don't understand exactly how it works, although they may think that they do. And what one doesn't understand, one tends not to trust, whether consciously of sub-. Like someone else was saying on another thread, if the evidence we had was something like fingerprints, people would accept it more readily, even though DNA is much more powerful evidence than fingerprints. But because most people can understand fingerprint evidence, but not really DNA evidence, they would be much more open to that. Because DNA is still so "mysterious" sounding, people tend to think that it would be easy to misinterpret or misrepresent the results, which is not the case at all.

But we better stay on the subject here  because this can lead into whole other discussion :).

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2004, 11:16:15 AM »
Evidently,  there were many Anastasia claimants.

Just as there were claimants for other members of the family.

I'm trying to put togather a list.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 02:11:43 PM by Alixz »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2004, 11:17:32 AM »
You are so right Helen!!  

Are there any books out there on Romanoff claimants?  Seems to me it would be an interesting topic.  I know Greg and Penny have mentioned working on something.  

I wish I could find a good website on this.  Instead, I find a lot of dubious claimants whose stories stretch the imagination too far to be legitimate....

Denise

Offline Annie

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2004, 12:10:18 PM »
There are probably several you've never heard of right  here on this Anastasia forum. Look through the threads, there are some interesting stories!

Offline Denise

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2004, 01:38:13 PM »
I've been doing this, Annie, and there are some interesting cases.  Unfortunately, for every one that could be plausible there are 4-5 that are a bit hard to swallow.  :-/

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2004, 10:03:36 AM »
I don't believe in "conspiracy theories." At the same time I thoroughly believe Anna Anderson and Anastasia Romanov to have been the same person.

I simply believe that no human science is infallible. I don't put absolute religious-type faith in any science. Every time we think that we have arrived at infallible scientific knowledge, we are eventually forced to either admit that we are mistaken, OR to adjust our ideas. When so much evidence exists in her favor (memories, scars, birth defects, etc.) I am surprised that so many people have "bolted" from her camp based on one piece of evidence.

Mark my words here, all ye who read. Withink a few years new scientific understandings will arise, understandings that will invalidate everything we now think we know about DNA. It's inevitable. Just be patient. Bide your time. Wait.

Remember, also, that DNA is only the most recent technology that has supposedly proved "AA" to be false. A generation ago people were saying the same things about her having been proved false, based on forensic examination of her ears. Then it was discovered that the pictures they were looking at were "backward." When they examined the pictures correctly they discovered that AA and AN had absolutely identical ears. Eventually the same kind of thing will happen with the DNA results.

What do I think about the DNA? Same old story- different technology. Ho-hum. I'm not shaken.


Offline Annie

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2004, 10:25:35 AM »
I had been hopeful she would be Anastasia, and the DNA tests were disappointing. I had really wanted to hang on to the hope and mystery. But after the results, I started looking at the whole story more objectively, without my fantasies and wishful thinking, and I saw how silly a lot of it really was, how much she didn't even look like her, and how there is absolutely NOTHING that can't be explained away.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2004, 10:35:04 AM »
Quote
I don't believe in "conspiracy theories." At the same time I thoroughly believe Anna Anderson and Anastasia Romanov to have been the same person.

I simply believe that no human science is infallible. I don't put absolute religious-type faith in any science. Every time we think that we have arrived at infallible scientific knowledge, we are eventually forced to either admit that we are mistaken, OR to adjust our ideas. When so much evidence exists in her favor (memories, scars, birth defects, etc.) I am surprised that so many people have "bolted" from her camp based on one piece of evidence.

Mark my words here, all ye who read. Withink a few years new scientific understandings will arise, understandings that will invalidate everything we now think we know about DNA. It's inevitable. Just be patient. Bide your time. Wait.

Remember, also, that DNA is only the most recent technology that has supposedly proved "AA" to be false. A generation ago people were saying the same things about her having been proved false, based on forensic examination of her ears. Then it was discovered that the pictures they were looking at were "backward." When they examined the pictures correctly they discovered that AA and AN had absolutely identical ears. Eventually the same kind of thing will happen with the DNA results.

What do I think about the DNA? Same old story- different technology. Ho-hum. I'm not shaken.

 


ISteinke,

The only reason you feel this way is because you don't understand the science of DNA. You say you don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if you did understand how DNA works, then you would clearly see that by not believing this particular evidence, you do indeed believe in conspiracy. Human science is not infallible, nobody ever said was, but one day perhaps, you will understand the concept of probability and improbability in science and how that serves to prove and disprove things. You cannot compare the pseudo-science of ear comparison or hearsay to the powerful science of DNA. Most people who are questioning DNA are the ones who do not really understand it. Talk to people who are DNA experts, and I mean not the ones who think they are experts, but ones who actually studied it and continue to study it and who truly understand it. See what they say about this case. Before you get taken in by various "conspiracy theories", and yes this is what they are for all intents and purposes here, even though you don't think so, learn more about these things, that way you can make an informed decision... I am not trying to be patronizing to you, I really mean it seriously. I am sure there is nothing at this point that anyone can say to show you the holes in your reasoning, nor does it really matter that much. I just hate to see people who are obviously intelligent enough to be able to reason well and analyze evidence, get misled and confused by something they only half understand...  :(

Helen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2004, 10:40:35 AM »
Just to add to Helen's good advice, certain things just 'ARE' and are proven scientifically, and won't change. The human body breathes in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide...science proved that...Will that "change"?

The moon revolves around the earth, and both revolve around the Sun. Galileo went to JAIL for his proof. Will that ever change?

All creatures have DNA in their cells. We can see it, measure it and know what it is. That will not change. The structure of DNA can be seen and studied by anyone who wants to do so. Will we learn MORE about it? sure! but that does not mean that EVERYTHING we already know will be tossed out the window...

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2004, 10:46:15 AM »
I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I, for one, have NEVER believed in AA based on a wish or desire that she would be Anastasia. As a matter of fact, I can't even really say that I "believe in Anna Anderson." Anyone who accepts her claims, and yet looks at her from a "faith" standpoint is delving into an area that belongs to religious faith, NOT a question of the identity of a human being.

To me the objective evidence in her favor seems so absolutely overwhelming, that I cannot just take one piece of evidence, however compelling it might SOUND, and discount everything else.

Having had identical body markings to Grand Duchess Anastasia seems to me to be just as compelling as DNA evidence. These markings are not things that anyone could have concocted. Only her parents, Shura, and Botkin would have known about these things. They were historically unimportant in all respects, EXCEPT for the way that they relate to the Anastasia case. Noone would have know about them. Stupid, uneducated Franziska, far away in Poland, certainly would not have known the locations of Anastasia's birthmarks and scars.

Shura is documented as having said that AA's feet were identical to Anastasia's feet. Her exact words were, "These are Anastasia's feet."

Also, it is a misnomer to say that Grand Duchess Olga rejected her. It is a documented quote of G.D.Olga, sitting in AA's hospital room, "Shura and the little one seem happy to have found one another again." That, my friends, adds up, incontestably to a recognition.

None of us know, none of us will ever know, just exactly what went on behind the scenes at Villa Hvidore (between Olga and Maria Feodorovna) after Olga returned from Berlin. However, knowing both of their personalities and relationships with one another, doesn't it seem likely that Olga took a severe browbeating from her domineering mother.

Now. I am going to share a quote with you, a quote that gets right down to the meat of this.  I cannot tell where I got it without the permission of the person who shared it [ask me privately], but it is incredibly significant in this discussion.

Many years ago when asked by a researcher about AA one of Xenia's grandsons replied, "Of course it was her. We all knew it was her. But we were forbidden by my grandmother to talk about it, or even to think about it. And family loyalty was everything after the revolution-- a she [Anastasia] had placed herself outside of that."

Enough said


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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2004, 10:50:23 AM »
Funny,
But, one of Xenia's grandsons always said to family members (ask me who) "Anna Anderson was the best of all the fakes".
FA

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2004, 10:52:47 AM »
Quote
Having had identical body markings to Grand Duchess Anastasia seems to me to be just as compelling as DNA evidence. Enough said

 


Just by this statement alone you show how little you undestand of this. That's too bad. Enough said.

Offline ISteinke

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2004, 10:57:47 AM »
Here's a significant, quote, followed bymore of my thoughts on the issue. This quote is from one of the websites concerning AA.

"These lines were sent to me by a friend in 1995, not long after the British Home Office's Forensic Sciences Service announced that mitochondrial DNA testing of the remains of “Anna Anderson” had proved conclusively that she was not Anastasia of Russia, youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. According to the British genetics team at Aldermaston, headed by Dr. Peter..."

Here is all the answer that is needed as regards the DNA issue. Until I read this quote I did not realize that the forensic science service of the British Home Office was involved with all of this. To me that invalidates all of our knowledge of these DNA results.

The sovereign of Great Britain may no longer hold great political power, but in issues dealing with his/her own family the power of the crown is still ABSOLUTE. If the queen wants privacy on this kind of family issue SHE WILL GET IT, PERIOD. In matters regarding her own family the home office is bound to do what Queen and Elizabeth and/or Prince Phillip want them to do.

Don't you see? These researchers are expressing results that the royal family wants expressed. If you [I mean "you" in a general sense- i.e. anyone] believe anything else you are being incorrigibly naive.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ISteinke »

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2004, 11:02:50 AM »
Blind testing with exact matching results was done in the United States by an independant university team.  No relationship to the UK whatsoever. They got the exact same results as everyone else. If you think that the Queen of England somehow manipulated Dr. Terry Melton (now one of the world's leading experts in the field) to falsify the results, you "and I mean you in the general sense" are so caught up in conspiracy theory as to border upon delusional.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2004, 11:05:51 AM »

Apparently everyone is somehow involved in covering up the fact that AA was AN. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, if I ever saw one. Make up your mind, ISteinke are you a conspiracy theorist or not?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »