Author Topic: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)  (Read 70587 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2005, 10:49:08 AM »
Like I've said many times,  I've never been a AA follower so I do need to ask questions about various subjects and would like sources because I do have the books where I can go find the facts and read the stuff in front of your fact  and the stuff behind your fact so I can get a better image of the events.

Unfortunantly,  Alex P. is not near the books and others don't own the books but if you can just give me a hint, maybe, I or others can find it and give the pages of the sources.

If I remember correctly, isn't it GD Xenia who is linked to reasons behind the "distrust" of Buxhovoden?  Do we know of any evidence GD Xenia had which caused this "distrust"?  It there is no evidence,  can someone  tell me if there was a reason GD Xenia might have become angery with Buxhovoden after her escape?  Were they ever really friends?  Or, did she always dislike Buxhovoden even before Nicholas II's abdication???

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2005, 09:43:04 PM »
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Like I've said many times,  I've never been a AA follower so I do need to ask questions about various subjects and would like sources because I do have the books where I can go find the facts and read the stuff in front of your fact  and the stuff behind your fact so I can get a better image of the events.

Unfortunantly,  Alex P. is not near the books and others don't own the books but if you can just give me a hint, maybe, I or others can find it and give the pages of the sources.

If I remember correctly, isn't it GD Xenia who is linked to reasons behind the "distrust" of Buxhovoden?  Do we know of any evidence GD Xenia had which caused this "distrust"?  It there is no evidence,  can someone  tell me if there was a reason GD Xenia might have become angery with Buxhovoden after her escape?  Were they ever really friends?  Or, did she always dislike Buxhovoden even before Nicholas II's abdication???

AGRBear

Thank you Bear. That is exactly why I ask for sources.
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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2005, 11:05:57 PM »
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I'm not quite sure as to your reply to Harald.Some people just will or can not give  what you call hard evidence on particulars,they just know.Where historians,authors have to go through research of some kind,others just know.

Is that not how some of the issues in books came/come about,you asked a question,they gave an answer,you relied on their accounts as they seemed very convincing.Others are just not to be questioned,they are better informed but don't put their knowledge on display,they are obliged not to give way.

Must be frustrating,to any author,but most to those that know better and don't like to see a certain person squandered.Hence Haralds post.As a reminder that not all that is published nescessarely reflects the truth,but just adds to sales.No offence intended.


Dear Lucien,

Thank you very much for your very kind answer.   This is exactly why I do not always demand secondary and tertiary sources but remain aware of the value of the primary sources written in Russian which are always available to Russian-speakers and particularly to those who enjoy serious intellectual endeavour.  I often think it would be helpful if persons seeking an in-depth and reliable knowledge of events of Russian history actually made an effort to learn the Russian language and go out and read the primary sources for themselves.  Demanding ad infinitim that people list secondary and tertiary is demonstrates an overall need for an improvement in one's scholarly erudition.  But that is just my opinion.

As to AGRBear, sorry, but the primary sources are readily available to me.  Great Mother Russia is just two hours away on a very reasonable plane ride from Beijing and I can, and do, come and go easily.

Now that since this discussion has been so thoroughly dragged off-topic, ladies and gentlemen, perhaps you may consider opening another Forum to discuss secondary-and-tertiary sources under a separate rubric.

Otherwise can please return to discussing the Baroness von Buxhoeveden and discuss the value of sources in another forum?

I hope that will be amenable to all.  After all, this is the Bushoeveden forum.  I for one will strictly stick to Buxhoeveden hereinafter and not focus on off-topic postings.  Let's move the intellectual part of the discussion forward.  The positions of each poster in this Forum are now sufficiently well-known to the others.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #108 on: August 23, 2005, 05:59:30 PM »
Apparently,  King and Wlson have collected informtion which gave them a negitive view of Buxhoveden.  Pages mention in the under "betrayal of Romanovs: 68-69,  141-43, 148, 265, 505.   Added to this is is "credibility of Ekaterinburg reports" folllowed by more page numbers.

p. 69

There is talk about money, a sum of 200,000 rubles,  being given  by a Makov to Buxhoeveden which someone claims did not reach Volkov and therefore didn't reach the IF while in Tobolsk

What was Volkov's fate?

p. 141

Buxhoevden said:  "We were prisioners and had to be passive."

p. 141-2

>>...Buxhoeveden had come under the penetrating gaze of the Bolsheviks, who suspected her in some unknown plot. 'Two searches of her apartment... presumably failed to disclose the hidden funds, but te increased pressure left Buxheveden in fear for her own welfare.<<

p. 142

Talks about Buxhoeveden on the boat Russ where Buxhoevenden went  to Rodionov whom  said  she told him about the royal jewels, where they were concealed and where other items could be found.

>>When the prisioners arrived in Ekaterinburg, women were questioned tht same day.  Like Buxhoeveden, Nikolaeva crumbled under presure, according to the Ural Regional Soviet member Pavel Bykov, "revealing were these things could be found.  Anna Romanova, who had arrived with Buxhoeveden in Tobolsk, also readily disclosed the secrets of the family she had served, she later married a Boshevik commissar...<<  

>>Acting out of fear, Buxhoeveden, neverthelesss guaranted her own safety on reaching the Urals.  Alone of the former imperial suit, she was not arrested and imprisioned but allowed first to live in a railroad coach at the station in Ekaterinburg, then to leave the Urals  unharmed with the members of the household.<<

>>Both Gillard and Gibbes later openly questioned how the baroness had managed to escape..."

p. 143

Wilson and King continue to d**n Buxhoeveden:  >>The Romanovs themselves apparently never learned the truth of their former lady-in-waiting's betrayal.<<

p. 505

Buxhoevenden was "expelled" from Ekaterenburg in June 1918 and left Siberia ....with a half dozen trunks of Romanov posessions.<<

And it is this page that the authors really strike hard at Buxhoeveden:  >>...Buxhoeveden was so intimaely involved in the betrayal of the Romanovs is starkly at odds with the lovingly devoted confidiante to the grand duchess.  Yet Buxhoevenden's actions in presumablly absconding with Soloviev's funs and her susequent revelations of the imperial family's hidden jewels were not aberrations.  While  still in Siberia, she borrowed 1,300 rubles from tutor Charles Sydney Gibbes, explaining that she would return the money..."  She later said she had never borrowed any money from Gibbes.  

Please note the word "presumabily" which I underlined.

Evidently, when the investigator Sokolov wanted in inerview Buxhoeveden she declined to see him.  On p. 506 it is the angry Sokolov who makes the comment:  "It is obviousl that her consience in regard to that period is not entirely clear."

Ahh,  here it is about GD Xenia who >>..fired off a number of angry letters to Victoria, warning that  the baroness was not to be trusted.  Buxhoeveden, she declared was guilty of treachery in Siberia, and Xenia consistently refused to receive her."

Was GD Xenia believing the gossips or did she have actually proof Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF?

I  believe she was receiving messages from Buxhoeveden several months after the Romanov boxes were sent to GD Xenia.  Buxhoeveden  told her where the jewels of Alexandra were in a certain box that had been sent by the Bolshviks.

Are you aware  that these certain jewels were never disclosed in any records?  Therefore,  we have no idea what jewels they were or their value.  They are briefly mentioned in William Clarke's THE LOST FORUNE OF THE TSARS p. 155.

When did GD Xenia send these angry letters?  Was there someone who had convinced her about Buxhoeveden's presumed betrayls?  Or, is there something else which we don't know about which  caused GD Xenia to become angry and begin to believe the worst of Buxhoeveden even if all there was was "rumors" and "gossip"?

I doubt that GD Xenia ever recieved any letters from the Reds telling her anything about Buxhoeveden.

If this is all the evidence there is,  I'm not sure painting a yelllow stripe down her back and burning a "t" into her memory is justified.  Why? I just have this feeling that is exactly what the Reds wanted people to believe.


If anyone may be guilty it  might be >>Anna Romanova, who had arrived with Buxhoeveden in Tobolsk, also readily disclosed the secrets of the family she had served, she later married a Boshevik commissar...<<  She remained in Russia.  However, it might be just as unfair to think she disclosed anything.

As for the so-called missing money,   we have no idea what happened to it.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #109 on: August 23, 2005, 08:35:24 PM »
You asked Volkov's fate, and you can also read how Volkov had nothing but praise for Buxhoeveden, here in my translation of his memoirs:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/volkov/volkov

Offline Joanna

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #110 on: September 04, 2005, 02:37:46 PM »
Although it has been written of the controversy of money owed by Baroness Buxhoeveden and cynicism of the Gibbs family towards her, there is a reference in this article of a letter Charles Gibbs wrote to Baroness Buxhoeveden as late as 1941:

"...In 1941 when Gibbs has arrived in London, he was 65 years, and required the assistant. Later he tells some years about the position in the letter to Baroness Buksgevden: '... four years as I have invited the son Stolypin Minister of Agriculture ...to arrive to me from Sacred mountain Athos where it has lead 25 years the monk after end of training in Sorbonne... Father Vasily now the scientist with high enough name... For the second year of its arrival I have organized all for its dedication ... Then it has incured all the duties connected with a temple..."

http://www.tserkov.info/numbers/history/?ID=285

It appears the connection between C.Gibbs and Baroness Buxhoeveden continued in later years. It would be interesting to know more of their correspondence.

Joanna

Offline felix

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2005, 05:06:32 PM »
I read that they were still writing to each other in 1956,when Gibbes was about 80.  I may be wrong, but didnt
 Sophie die in 1956, or around there ?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2005, 01:48:15 AM »
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I read that they were still writing to each other in 1956,when Gibbes was about 80.  I may be wrong, but didnt
  Sophie die in 1956, or around there ?


I believe she did die in 1956.


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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #113 on: December 26, 2005, 03:08:23 PM »
This is a rather old thread, but a question has popped into my mind.

Xenia sent numerous letters to Victoria Milford Haven warning her about Buxhoeveden.  What was Victoria's response to Xenia?  Did she ignore them or did she defend the Baroness to the Grand Duchess?

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #114 on: December 26, 2005, 03:38:22 PM »
Good question! I wouldn't be suprised if she didn't reply out of politeness. The Baroness did stay with Victoria until  her death in 1950 which is quite telling.  Maybe Victoria viewed her as a link to her deceased beloved sister and family... :-/
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Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2005, 03:27:19 AM »
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Good question! I wouldn't be suprised if she didn't reply out of politeness. The Baroness did stay with Victoria until  her death in 1950 which is quite telling.  Maybe Victoria viewed her as a link to her deceased beloved sister and family... :-/

Victoria M-H's correspondence which are no doubt in th Broadlands archive (or maybe in the Royal archives)would probably tellus more. Even more tanterlizingly many,many more questions would be answered if the Zahle archive was released by the Queen of Denmark. Quite why after 80+ years (and even the opening of the SOVIET archive) access to these files is still being denied is as great a mystery.Maybe next year after the Dowager Empresses body is returned to Russia there will be a change of heart by the danish court.

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2005, 03:15:03 PM »
The Zahle papers may be part of an agreement from reign to reign.  It is quite possible that at the time those files were placed in the Family archive, it was decided that they were to never been publicly released or perhaps until a specific date. QM may just be the guardian of   a decision  that was made decades ago.

Offline Annie

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2005, 12:29:08 PM »
Sophie lived with Victoria MH? I didn't know that! When did she move in with her? I also thought she married Gibbes, she didn't?

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2005, 06:41:13 PM »
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Sophie lived with Victoria MH? I didn't know that! When did she move in with her? I also thought she married Gibbes, she didn't?



The Baroness began with the Milford Havens some time in the 1920s.  Later, I believe during WWII she also had a cottage near Coppins and was a good friend of Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

Offline Annie

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2005, 08:23:07 AM »
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The Baroness began with the Milford Havens some time in the 1920s.  Later, I believe during WWII she also had a cottage near Coppins and was a good friend of Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.


That's interesting, thanks! What became of Gibbes, and did they never have a relationship?