Author Topic: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)  (Read 56544 times)

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Offline Sergei

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2004, 07:38:34 PM »
Hi everyone, it would appear from one source that the Imperial family themselves were aware that Baroness Buxhoeveden's attitude towards them had changed.
I do realise that my sources for this statement are very controversial. Like most of you I have read any book on the Romanovs that I can get my hands on!  Unfortunately this means that often (like now) I cannot remember where I've read particular quotes.
Here goes; either in Lames Blair Lovell's "the Lost Princess" or Peter Kurth's "Anastasia" the topic of Buxhoeveden comes up and 'Anastasia" says something along the lines that following the revolution the Baroness had changed in her attitude towards them and that no one in the family could understand why.  I seem to recall that the Empress was particularly concerned about the change in the Baroness's attitude.
Now I know that these sources are seen as unproved and possibly dubious but I think it's interesting that "Anastasia"  mentions something that casts a shadow on the hitherto unquestioned loyalty of the Baroness. It's also interesting, for those that think Anna Anderson was a fake that she specifically mentions concerns about Buxhoeveden's loyalty which years later we are now discussing on this messageboard. I don't have a strong conviction either way regarding beliefs about Mrs Anderson being Anastasia or conversely  that  Anastasia died in the cellar but  I do think it's interesting that a fake would mention the Baroness specifically and not any other name that she could have mentioned eg Hendrikova, Schneider, Botkin etc etc if she was trying to build a case for having intimate knowledge of the Imperial Family.

Offline Martyn

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2004, 03:55:09 AM »
This is such an interesting discussion.  My basic problem with Baroness Buxhoeveden is that I just can't see why she was released and others weren't.
Countess Hendrikova and Mlle Schneider were both imprisoned and shot, yet Isa was simply set free.  Am I correct in thinking that her excuse was that the Soviets considered her to be a foreign national?
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2004, 10:48:08 PM »
Does anyone know anything about the circumstances of her death?

Thanks for any help  ;D


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Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2004, 11:54:39 AM »
In Peter Kurth's book on page 58, AA accuses Isa of obtaining her freedom by giving the Bolsheviks information that prevented a rescue attempt at Tobolsk.
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Offline hikaru

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2005, 12:38:29 AM »
I think that she was released without any reason.
Maybe, some of the soldiers thought  that she is pitty and sympathic.
Maybe she was smart and understood the situation - understood clearly that she will be killed anyway  if she will delay, so she gave all the valuables she had to the right person and flew away.
I think that nobody of the surrounding of the Tsar thought that they will be killed those days ( especially in Tobolsk)
It was only her who was released , or somebody else?

Offline lc

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2005, 02:01:41 PM »
Hi Elisa,
Yours is the only reference I've found for the year of Baroness Buxhoeveden's death (ie. 1956). Can you please tell us the source which confirmed this date for you? I'd appreciate that!
LC

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2005, 07:36:27 PM »
Hi:

               My problem with Baroness Buxoheveden is the same than yours, and I have too many questions about this woman , when she was in Siberia with the IF.

                 I respect too much Penny Wilson and Greg King, to think they wanted to damage Boxoheveden reputation. They are historians, so they basically does they job. Historians must find the truth, and the truth is more deep and complex than things that you read in newspapers saying THIS and not another is the truth.

                 When an historian (I'm one, but I didn't write about Romanovs, but about French Revolution and Argentinian History) finds some interesting info, that is not these of the official History, he/she must said it to the people, even if at first, people would laugh at him/her for he/she is contradicting things that all people "of course" knows.

                   Now, when you said that you are doubting about "proved facts" it's a new use to said that "you have a conspirative mind"... ;D And...of course, the answer is YES! We, historians, we have conspirative minds...For conspirations existed since the first day of the Human Being history! Some historians before us, find about things that we'll never imagine they were true...but they were! Almost until another historian finds another document denying the whole thing. This is History, and be sure that it is not a static science.

               Historians didn't believe in newspapers affirmations, nor in "official theories", they must by searching for truth, always searching. For us, historians, an historical "case" could never be closed, and if one of them seems to be so, sometimes , new documents and infos comes to the light, and you must open it again. An historian mind must be open at all possibilities.

              Sorry to said that; I'm being rude. But I become very angry all times I read some people critizicing Penny and Greg, who are always searching documents and new infos. They are HARD WORKING, and they are behind the truth, not wanting to damage dead people. They are in touch with sources that not many members here knows, since we only read books about the IF. It's the only thing we can do. We have not documents. I know very well the difference, for I work with documents and believe me...It's very different that you may find in documents, and sources than in books.

                    And of course, Bear: I also believe that one IF member, at least, escaped from the Ipatiev House...

RealAnastasia.

rskkiya

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2005, 09:37:38 PM »
Quote
Hi:

 á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á á  á á á á á á á á á á And of course, Bear: I also believe that one IF member, at least, escaped from the Ipatiev House...

RealAnastasia.


RA
Who do you think survived?

I am very interested in your historical research work on the French Revolution -- is it available for a lay reading or is it purely a scholarly piece?

rskkiya



(publish or perish hehehe)

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2005, 07:17:39 PM »
Hi, rsskyia (hope I spelled correctly your screen-name! ;D):

                     I'm not an original. I always believed that Anastasia and Alexei escaped. Well; that's not true. I don't think they escaped but they were rescued. Since I like so much Olga's character I would have wished, it was her who survived. Unfortunately, things seems to have turned pretty bad for good old Olishka.  :'( Nothing makes me think she escaped, or was rescued . And if Anastasia was not the one who survived, I give y two cents to Tatiana. Of course, the Tatia Romani story is just ridicoulous, and I believe much more Alexandra Michaelis (see the thread about those two women in the "Claimants, post here" forum.  Too resume the discussion I must said that my own idea is that Anastasia and Alexei survived, but I'm open to all possibilities. Perhaps, Anastasia didn't survive. Perhaps, Alexei died because his hemophilia shortly after the execution...I'm always ready to know and accept all theories. I'm not narrow-minded.

              As for my work: I have one published. It's name is "The Socialism in French Revolution". You may see, in the cover, "La LibertÚ Guidand le Peuple", by Delacroix. It was published in "Editorial Fraterna", but the whole book is in Spanish...Since I was born and currently living in Argentina. Now, I'm working in a "Thermidor" book. I'm a kind of morbid interest in awful, long ago nights, where people is shot, and mistreated, and killed.   ;D And don't worry! I don't think a single robespierriste survived this night in Hotel-de-Ville and after it, the guillotine!  ;D ;) Oh, well! An historian named Len˘tre wrote that Hanriot, the Commandant General of Army Forces, was seen walking in a Paris street, twelve years after Thermidor! Of course, I don't believe this. All Paris could see Hanriot being killed in the guillotine before their eyes!

            Feel free to ask me whatever you want to.
            RealAnastasia.

P.S: And yes...I have a cosnpirative mind!  ;) ::)

Offline lc

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2005, 11:17:22 PM »
Hi,
I've spent hours on the internet, have had the public library's research department checking...but have been unsuccessful in finding Baroness Buxhoeveden's date of birth and death. I see one reference to her death in 1956 on this discussion board. Does anyone know the circumstances of her death - when and where? And where does the 1956 date come from?
Thanks! I'd love to clear up this mystery.
LC

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2005, 02:24:41 PM »
Quote
No need to get a copy guys: Thanks to Bob, Buxhoeveden books are online.

Try this one:
http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/
 ;)
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline felix

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2005, 07:28:26 PM »
I just finnished rereading her three books. All worth reading. She was a great writer.  And so close to the subject.  Her bio of A.F. I think is the best book written about her.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2005, 03:48:05 PM »
Buxhoevden talks about the 17teeners who had been part of the IF staff found on the following URL:

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/VIII.html

>>Some well-wisher had scrawled in chalk upon our carriage that "17 servants of the Tyrant Nicholas II" were travelling in it. This became the cause of much hostile comment at our stopping-places, as can be well imagined. The "17 servants" comprised Gibbes and Gilliard, Mademoiselle Tegleva and myself, as well as maids, footmen, and cooks. It was a varied company: the Tobolsk "odd man" side by side with the Empress's second dresser, M. G. Toutelberg, quite unable at first, poor soul, to grasp the changed situation, but later, when facing actual danger, developing quite unsuspected resourcefulness and courage. There was the fat, clean-shaven butler, in his blue frock-coat, sitting disconsolately on his bag, gazing straight before him but quite alert whenever one of the other servants appealed to his superior judgment, when his opinion, expressed with befitting dignity, was received with respectful attention. It was strange to me to see how these men maintained, perhaps unconsciously, the customary household discipline. Not only did they treat the butler with due consideration, but were always most attentive to us, trying their best to make things more comfortable, carrying the water, working the pump, offering us a taste of their best morsels, poor stuff though it might be.

The under servants were footmen, cooks, and the maids of Mademoiselle Schneider and Countess Hendrikoff - frightened, consumptive creatures, whose racking cough and gasping breath were heard at night by all the inmates of our car. One of the cooks, a thin, dark man - he was "the sauce-artist," he told me - seemed to be a wit. He kept the party in fits of laughter by his sallies, but the best, seemingly, were not for our ears, for they were delivered in a lowered voice, and though they were greeted with much merriment, restraining glances were thrown in our direction. There was not much laughter, though. Apart from the utter discomfort that surrounded them, those poor people had enough to make them feel sad and dejected. They had lost their situations and their hopes of a pension. All had large families and were trained to no other kind of work. Wherever they might go in search of employment their past would be counted against them. Their future was dark indeed, but they spoke little about their personal troubles. They had followed their Emperor voluntarily into exile, and his fate dwarfed all their own anxieties in their minds.<<
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2005, 07:26:00 PM »
This is all interesting. I just read it all and thought it would be interesting to bump it up for more discussion.

First, here is what King & Wilson say: FOTR page 141. Talking about what happened on the Rus
"Even as these horrors unfolded, another ominous and, in the end, brutally personal situation played itself out. Unknown to the terrified grand duchesses, a previously trusted member of their father's suite willingly betrayed their secrets. One learning that she ha apparently kept Soloviev's money, Baroness Buxhoeveden had come umder the penetrating gaze of the Bolsheviks, who suspected her in some unkown plot. Two searches of her apartment early on the morning of April 25 presumably failed to disclose the hidden funds, but the increased presure left Buxhoeveden in feat for her own welfare.
"As the grand duchesses' terrified screams filled the decks of the Rus, echoing across the placid waters to the darkness beyond, Buxhoeveden acted. Perhaps in an effort to spare herself from the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of hte three young women, but where the items could be found. 'The buttons on her coat aren't buttons,' she revealed, 'they are diamonds'; 'the aigrette of the hat conceals a diamond from the shah of Persia.' and; that belt there -- underneath it are ropes of pearls."
The source King and Wilson cite for this is: Bykov, October 17, 1927, in TsDOOSO, f. 4`, op 1, d.149
Some have wondered about a search of the IF for jewels. I doubt a search would have revealed jewels hidden in clothing as these were.

King and Wilson continue:
"Acting out of fear, Buxhoeveden nevertheless guaranteed her own safety on reaching the Urals. Alone of hte former imperial suite, she was not arrested and imprisioned but allowed to first live in a railroad coach at the station in Ekaterinburg, then to leave the Urals unharmed with the members of the household. Both Gillilard and Gibbes later openly questioned how the baroness had managed to escape the fate of Countess Hendrikova and Mademoiselle Schneider, the only other two women of the suite. 'My father,' said George Gibbes, 'rarely spoke of her. When he did, it was in a distrateful way, indicating that she'd been responsible not only for his misery but also that of the imperial family.'" Source listed by King and Wilson: George Gibbes to King, May 1989.

Sounds like that last one is straight from the horse's mouth.

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2005, 07:51:30 PM »
Thanks, Lexi.  It's my understanding that not only was the Gibbes family very cynical about her, but the GD Xenia specifically warned Victoria Milford-Haven not to take the Baroness in and always refused to receive her.