Author Topic: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)  (Read 51309 times)

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Offline Lemur

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2006, 09:47:17 AM »
I think we cannot draw any conclusions about the reasons for Sophie Buxhoevedon's survival in Siberian captivity. We can say with certainty that the only other person of a similar rank, Countess Gendrikova, also a Russian lady in waiting, was murdered along with Schneider. Why this was so is debatable.

Are you suggesting there is any validity to the theory that she betrayed the family to save her own life? Is that why you think she was let go? I personally do not believe that. I don't beileve she'd have remained close to Gilliard and Gibbes all that time if they knew she was a 'traitor.' Besides, didn't the 'betrayal' story originate with the illustrious Anna Anderson? Another reason not to take it seriously.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2006, 11:57:00 AM »
I think we cannot draw any conclusions about the reasons for Sophie Buxhoevedon's survival in Siberian captivity. We can say with certainty that the only other person of a similar rank, Countess Gendrikova, also a Russian lady in waiting, was murdered along with Schneider. Why this was so is debatable.

Are you suggesting there is any validity to the theory that she betrayed the family to save her own life? Is that why you think she was let go? I personally do not believe that. I don't beileve she'd have remained close to Gilliard and Gibbes all that time if they knew she was a 'traitor.' Besides, didn't the 'betrayal' story originate with the illustrious Anna Anderson? Another reason not to take it seriously.

No, I what I said was that "we cannot draw any conclusions". It has been suggested that a "foreign" sounding name was the reason she survived, and I don't think that stands up to the evidence at hand. What I believe is that the decisions to kill various persons who remained with the family were random. Some lived, some died, but I think that for some of them, it could have gone either way. I don't think there was a master plan or a controlling idea.

I'm uncertain about whether or not she betrayed the family. I do not consider it proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2006, 03:12:05 PM »
Mlle Schneider was not German,she was Russian of German (at least on her fathers side) heritage.

I had always heard that Mlle. Schneider accompanied Alexandra from Darmstadt to Russia. Of course, there were many ethnic Germans who lived in the Russian Empire. And, there is a chance that Mlle. Schneider came from Russia to Darmstadt after the Imperial couple's engagement.

If this is true, it still tends to disprove the argument about why Buxhoeveden survived. She and Mlle Schneider would have been ethnic Germans who were Russian subjects and members of the Imperial Court. If in fact there was a policy to not execute foreign nationals, wouldn't she have been mistaken for being a German as was the Baroness?
Mlle Schneider was sent from Russia to Harrogate where the newly engaged Alix of Hesse was taking a cure. Having joined Alexandra's household she never left it.....
This is true -- according to Robert Massie, Mlle. Catherine Schneider was originally GD Ella's reader and assisted Alix with her Russian language studies during the summer of 1894.
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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2006, 02:45:54 PM »
I think we cannot draw any conclusions about the reasons for Sophie Buxhoevedon's survival in Siberian captivity. We can say with certainty that the only other person of a similar rank, Countess Gendrikova, also a Russian lady in waiting, was murdered along with Schneider. Why this was so is debatable.

Are you suggesting there is any validity to the theory that she betrayed the family to save her own life? Is that why you think she was let go? I personally do not believe that. I don't beileve she'd have remained close to Gilliard and Gibbes all that time if they knew she was a 'traitor.' Besides, didn't the 'betrayal' story originate with the illustrious Anna Anderson? Another reason not to take it seriously.

Great points Lemur! :) Incidently though, I think I read that both Gilliard and Gibbes disliked Baroness Buxhoevedon (great name!!).
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #154 on: October 18, 2006, 11:16:34 PM »
I think we cannot draw any conclusions about the reasons for Sophie Buxhoevedon's survival in Siberian captivity. We can say with certainty that the only other person of a similar rank, Countess Gendrikova, also a Russian lady in waiting, was murdered along with Schneider. Why this was so is debatable.

Are you suggesting there is any validity to the theory that she betrayed the family to save her own life? Is that why you think she was let go? I personally do not believe that. I don't beileve she'd have remained close to Gilliard and Gibbes all that time if they knew she was a 'traitor.' Besides, didn't the 'betrayal' story originate with the illustrious Anna Anderson? Another reason not to take it seriously.

No, I what I said was that "we cannot draw any conclusions". It has been suggested that a "foreign" sounding name was the reason she survived, and I don't think that stands up to the evidence at hand. What I believe is that the decisions to kill various persons who remained with the family were random. Some lived, some died, but I think that for some of them, it could have gone either way. I don't think there was a master plan or a controlling idea.

I'm uncertain about whether or not she betrayed the family. I do not consider it proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Indeed an opinion in the absence of clear documented evidence, other than to be used to discredit a loyal member of the Court is best ignored. That opinion adds nothing to our understanding as to why the Baroness was permitted to leave bolshevik Russia.

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #155 on: October 18, 2006, 11:37:39 PM »
...  I don't beileve she'd have remained close to Gilliard and Gibbes all that time if they knew she was a 'traitor.' Besides, didn't the 'betrayal' story originate with the illustrious Anna Anderson? Another reason not to take it seriously.

Lemur you are perfectly correct in your logical analysis.

There seems to be slight problem with accepting what AA allegedly stated. How would she have known?

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2006, 01:31:34 AM »
Indeed an opinion in the absence of clear documented evidence, other than to be used to discredit a loyal member of the Court is best ignored. That opinion adds nothing to our understanding as to why the Baroness was permitted to leave bolshevik Russia.

Margarita


My apologies but my previous statement should have read:

Indeed an opinion in the absence of clear documented evidence used to discredit a loyal member of the Court is best ignored. That opinion adds nothing to our understanding as to why the Baroness was permitted to leave bolshevik Russia.

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Offline Lemur

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #157 on: October 19, 2006, 10:11:15 AM »
The Baroness was not actually permitted to leave Bolshevik Russia by Bolsheviks. It happened during a long and varied chain of events over more than a year. The party she was put out with, including Gibbes and Gilliard, were told to leave Ekaterinburg, and were threatened that they must. The reason Schneider and Hendrickov where executed is because they were in a group of seventeen essential servants the family was allowed to keep, and Buxhoevedon and the tutors were not. So there's the explaination why they were in more danger of execution- they were in a different category. Buxhoevedon mentions in her book "Left Behind" how they did risk themselves to try to see the family, and they saw Nagorny as he was being taken to his execution. For a moment, their eyes met, and they knew he had seen them. They held their collective breath in fear he may unintentionally give them away, but he was careful not to and they were grateful. They were amazed at his presence of mind considering his own impending fate.

For many months, she, the tutors and a few others traveled across Siberia, facing many challenges and both good and bad situations, danger, and even at times remaining anonymous. They were in towns that had fallen to the Reds, Whites, Greens, all of them, and back again. This was common in those days in Siberia. In fact this is how they got out of Russia! The area they left Russia from (Omsk) was not under Bolshevik rule at the time but controlled by the Whites under Admiral Kolchak with a heavy British presence. Their British military train  passed through parts of China and ended up in Vladivostock, which at that time was controlled by Allied forces, mainly the British. It was because of this that they had no problem securing their exit from Russian territory. She said she owed her escape to a British General named Knox.

Buxhoevedon sailed to Japan, and from there to Hawaii, then San Francisco, traveled by railroad to New York where she took an ocean liner to England, and then traveled on to her father in Sweden. Hers was a remarkable and very informative journey, gives much insight into her as a person, as well as a lot of eyewitness accounts of the Russian civil war in Siberia. You can read it right here on this site.

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/preface.html
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 10:28:46 AM by Lemur »

Offline Teddy

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2006, 02:59:53 PM »
Are there no pictures of her in later life?

Offline newfan

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2009, 12:55:34 AM »
...........I have hear that the russians liquidated people years after revolution..Do you know who the people they killed were?and why?...i know this link is not been used in a while but i am not sure where to post this.
And i am intersted to know
thank you
newfan
Quote
That the Bolsheviks let people go for unknowable reasons. No one, but  NO one was closer to Alexanda than Anya A. yet they let her go scot free. No one ever accused AA of giving away secrets or betraying the IF. So, why should they accuse Sophie B?

Dear Rob,

What you write is actually very true.

There are von Buxhoeveden archives still extant, however, and they are in both Cherry Hills, NJ and in New York City with the surviving direct descedants of the Baroness.  I am not aware, however if they have been consulted, or even if the family would allow it.

But as to your point, indeed.

By all signs of the time, Anna Vyrubova should have been shot on-the-spot.

By all signs of the time, Sophie von Buxhoevedent should have been shot on-the-spot.

As a general rule, the Bolsheviks liquidated the courtiers first and asked questions later, if ever.

The had to know who Vyurbova was.  Everyone in Piter knew who was Vryubova was.  She was probably almost as hated as Rapustin, and slightly less than Kerensky, and was surely blamed for every evil possible.  So what indeed was the trade-off?  And why was she allowed to escape?  And once she escaped into the emigration in Finland, why was she not tracked down there and liquidated in the same manner the Bolsheviks liquidated so many in Paris and in Prague and in Belgrade?  There MUST have had to have been a trade-off.  But what was it?  And what could she have traded up?

As for the Baroness, I write the same questions.  Vryubova may have the closest to the Empress, but she was despised even by the rest of the Camarilla.  The Baroness was more innocuous and would have learned much than even Vryubova, albeit unwittingly so.  So what was the trade-off here? What did she offer up?  The jewels...I don't think so personally...the NKVD writes that they were already known about...did she know something about a  possiblity of foreign exile that was not mentioned elsewhere?  And then why did the Home Office in London grant her "droit-de-sejour" in England when it refused so many other Russian nobles and court people?  What exactly did she bring with her to London or have shipped to London?  This indeed is not a small question, dear all, but a very, very valid one.

Indeed, let's discuss this.  It truly merits close scrutiny.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.



Offline Carisbrooke

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #160 on: April 12, 2013, 07:04:56 AM »
Quote
Does anyone know anything about the circumstances of her death?

Thanks for any help  ;D

Sophie, Baroness von Buxhoeveden, was born on June 9, 1883 (old style), at home, in St. Petersburg, Russia and the Dowager Empress (then Empress) attended her baptism.

She was the daugther of Baron Karl Matthis Ludwig von Buxhoeveden and of Mme Ludmilla Ossokina, who was one of the first victims of the Revolution.  Baron Karl von Buxhoeveden died in the emigration in 1935.  He and his family were Baltic Lutherans.  Baroness von Buxhoeveden was Orthodox.  Sophie, Baroness von Buxhoeveden, had one brother, Piotr Karlovitch, who died tragically when he was less than 24-years old, a death from which his mother never recovered.

Sophie, Baroness von Buxhoeveden died on November 26, 1956 (new style) near London, England was accorded a full Orthodox funeral by the London parish of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile.  I have been asked not disclose her place of burial except to say that it is in hallowed ground for a person of the Russian Orthodox faith.

I can't see any reason for secrecy anymore as this information has been available on the internet since 2009.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=32784980 .......Sophie Buxhoeveden at find a grave.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #161 on: May 01, 2013, 09:45:48 PM »
I have some comments and observations on Sophie/Isa: If anyone told the Bolos about the jewelry why didn't the Urals Soviet order a search. The jewelry could have been used to bribe a guard or guards who could have arranged an escape ect. One should point out the guard force was not 100% reliable and among the prisoners are 4 rather pretty young ladies. Any rookie lawman would have had a search done. It also should be pointed out that the Urals Soviet Members were not rookies and were a bunch of hard and ruthless men. There is also no mention at this time that they discussed the jewelry. I believe the only source of this is a letter written in 1927.
 As for Isa and Sokolov from reading the book "The File on the Tsar" it seems he wasn't very popular with a lot of people.
 Isa seems like an intelligent, resourcefull, loyal and brave woman otherwise she would have never gone to Siberia to be with the Imperial family. Would not have stayed at Tobolsk and Ekterinberg ect like she did and would have probably ended up dead. She also must have been a woman of good moral character otherwise she would not have been a lady in waiting to Alexandra.
 We will probably never know the real reasons why she was not jailed with rest at Ekterinberg unless some paperwork shows up saying so. It could be something as mundane as there was no more room in the jail or she was not considered part of the entourage since she didn't travel to Toblosk with the IF and did not live in the Govenors Mantion.
 As for her later interigation along with the two maids one wonders why no one else in the entourage was questioned which is something a rookie lawman would have done. It could be because the Checkist who did the "questioning" was interested in jewelry but liked the ladies. Which is probably why she didn't talk about this incident. Finally, if somebody had told the Soviets about the jewelry why did the Soviets start their search for the rest of Alexandra's massive jewelry collection until the late 1920s/1930s.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #162 on: November 06, 2017, 09:56:49 PM »
In her book "Before the Storm" she mentions having a brother who was a naval officer who was wounded and captured at the battle of Tsushima. Does anyone know more about him? Like what ship he was on? She doesn't even mention his name in this book and it looks like he died in the 1908-9 period.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2017, 02:24:22 PM »
In her book "Before the Storm" she mentions having a brother who was a naval officer who was wounded and captured at the battle of Tsushima. Does anyone know more about him? Like what ship he was on? She doesn't even mention his name in this book and it looks like he died in the 1908-9 period.

Peter von Buxhoevden (1886-1909)

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #164 on: November 22, 2017, 07:27:41 PM »
Thanks does anyone know what ship he was on?