Author Topic: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)  (Read 69737 times)

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AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2005, 05:28:50 AM »
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Which translates in English to ....?


"And thus the crow said to the raven".


Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2005, 09:40:40 PM »
Spasibo Alex!  :)


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2005, 12:13:08 PM »
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This is such an interesting discussion.  My basic problem with Baroness Buxhoeveden is that I just can't see why she was released and others weren't.
Countess Hendrikova and Mlle Schneider were both imprisoned and shot, yet Isa was simply set free.  Am I correct in thinking that her excuse was that the Soviets considered her to be a foreign national?


I think Buxhoevenden's release and escape is what bothers most people.   Why would the Reds let her go?  If you are looking for an answer,  you can find this was not an uncommon occurance with the Reds.   It was one of their methods of "divide and conquer".   To make it appear someone has revealed secrets and then release them, like they did Buxhoevenden, and in doing so this created doubt in the minds of many and still does to this day.  Therefore, this proves this kind of method works.

If you do not wish to give the Reds credit for being that smart, then, you can fall back on the fact that nothing during that time was always logical or made any sense.  The Reds shot over the smallest of infractions and sometimes let a man guilty of a crime just walk away for who know what reason.

Perhaps if there was dislike of her among the Romanovs, each person who dislike her may have each had their own reasons.  Perhaps it would be best to name each individual and discuss the facts around each individual's reason.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2005, 02:06:10 PM »
Well, Bear, don't forget they released Vyroubova and let her go as well.

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2005, 07:02:49 PM »
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Well, Bear, don't forget they released Vyroubova and let her go as well.


I am not sure what you are telling me.

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2005, 08:08:15 PM »
That the Bolsheviks let people go for unknowable reasons. No one, but  NO one was closer to Alexanda than Anya A. yet they let her go scot free. No one ever accused AA of giving away secrets or betraying the IF. So, why should they accuse Sophie B?

AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2005, 11:54:30 AM »
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That the Bolsheviks let people go for unknowable reasons. No one, but  NO one was closer to Alexanda than Anya A. yet they let her go scot free. No one ever accused AA of giving away secrets or betraying the IF. So, why should they accuse Sophie B?


Dear Rob,

What you write is actually very true.

There are von Buxhoeveden archives still extant, however, and they are in both Cherry Hills, NJ and in New York City with the surviving direct descedants of the Baroness.  I am not aware, however if they have been consulted, or even if the family would allow it.

But as to your point, indeed.

By all signs of the time, Anna Vyrubova should have been shot on-the-spot.

By all signs of the time, Sophie von Buxhoevedent should have been shot on-the-spot.

As a general rule, the Bolsheviks liquidated the courtiers first and asked questions later, if ever.

The had to know who Vyurbova was.  Everyone in Piter knew who was Vryubova was.  She was probably almost as hated as Rapustin, and slightly less than Kerensky, and was surely blamed for every evil possible.  So what indeed was the trade-off?  And why was she allowed to escape?  And once she escaped into the emigration in Finland, why was she not tracked down there and liquidated in the same manner the Bolsheviks liquidated so many in Paris and in Prague and in Belgrade?  There MUST have had to have been a trade-off.  But what was it?  And what could she have traded up?

As for the Baroness, I write the same questions.  Vryubova may have the closest to the Empress, but she was despised even by the rest of the Camarilla.  The Baroness was more innocuous and would have learned much than even Vryubova, albeit unwittingly so.  So what was the trade-off here? What did she offer up?  The jewels...I don't think so personally...the NKVD writes that they were already known about...did she know something about a  possiblity of foreign exile that was not mentioned elsewhere?  And then why did the Home Office in London grant her "droit-de-sejour" in England when it refused so many other Russian nobles and court people?  What exactly did she bring with her to London or have shipped to London?  This indeed is not a small question, dear all, but a very, very valid one.

Indeed, let's discuss this.  It truly merits close scrutiny.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2005, 12:29:36 PM »
Alex, yes, it is an intrigue, is it not ? Why was Anya V. spared?  The Baroness I have no sympathy for, perhaps my own prejudices as well as the information from FOTR. But Anya, yes was so despised, how and why did she get away ? Her book is a trifle and hardly reveals anything and her subsequent life was uneventful as far as I know. She displayed no wealth, and lived in quiet obscurity- not seeking nor even wanting attention. Did the Soviets realize that she was a simple, foolish woman of no worth to them ? They eliminated others with less claim to connections with the IF.
Curious how she escaped the "wrath of the masses".

Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2005, 12:45:17 PM »
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Alex, yes, it is an intrigue, is it not ? Why was Anya V. spared?  The Baroness I have no sympathy for, perhaps my own prejudices as well as the information from FOTR. But Anya, yes was so despised, how and why did she get away ? Her book is a trifle and hardly reveals anything and her subsequent life was uneventful as far as I know. She displayed no wealth, and lived in quiet obscurity- not seeking nor even wanting attention. Did the Soviets realize that she was a simple, foolish woman of no worth to them ? They eliminated others with less claim to connections with the IF.
Curious how she escaped the "wrath of the masses".



I feel bad personally when I read about how others feel about the Baroness, particularly for family reasons.  I have taken the authors of FOTR to task on this subject and simply have not energy to do it.  The Baroness makes an easy, if not quite dead, subject to snipe at, if you excuse me, in order to sell a book.  As I have mentioned elsewhere, please, please a good author will discard all of the secondary and tertiary sources, except as leads perhaps, and rely on primary sources of information.  Has anyone located the transcription of the Baronesss's "enqueta" that surely made by the Cheka?  If not the original, which may have been lost, there may be references and allusions to it in other sources.

As for the Vrubova, she just couldn't have simply escaped through Russia the way one catches the BART in San Francisco.  What did she exactly give up?  Probably only her Father Confessor in the Russian Church in Helsinki knew that answer and has anyone bothered to find the family of that Father Confessor and ask the daugther or the granddaugther?

But regardless of my personal feelings, there must have been a trade-off in the cases of both the women.  I do not believe the Vryubova to have been  a fool, but rather a sinister, plotting creature who somehow fantasized about controlling the Empire through Alexandra.  And all of the madness in Petersburg in the late 1915-1916-early 1917 period seems to confirm this.  She and Rasputin made and unmade governments at will through the Empress.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.

Offline hikaru

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2005, 12:07:06 AM »
As for "droit - de- sejour" in England.
At present, everybody could get the passport of England if he would buy a company or something in England amount to quite big  00000000.
Why Baroness got it?
Maybe she had already an real estate in England or big amount in the bank?

But I understand that she came to Copenhagen first.
So , maybe she got the England's permission through Marie Feodorovna, who was her god mother?

Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2005, 01:09:10 AM »
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Alex, yes, it is an intrigue, is it not ? Why was Anya V. spared?  The Baroness I have no sympathy for, perhaps my own prejudices as well as the information from FOTR. But Anya, yes was so despised, how and why did she get away ? Her book is a trifle and hardly reveals anything and her subsequent life was uneventful as far as I know. She displayed no wealth, and lived in quiet obscurity- not seeking nor even wanting attention. Did the Soviets realize that she was a simple, foolish woman of no worth to them ? They eliminated others with less claim to connections with the IF.
Curious how she escaped the "wrath of the masses".



I  agree Robert. Although Anya is really a topic for another thread, I think that when they interrogated her they realized she was merely  fool and not worth their time.
Also, I believe AA refused to meet with the Baroness because she said the Baroness had betrayed her family. So the idea of the Baroness' betrayal has been out there long before FOTR was written. I think FOTR is just further confirmation of the idea that the Baroness betrayed the IF. People can be very deceptive.  We've seen that in history as well as here on the board
Not to be too harsh on her, I don't know what I would have done in that situation so I don't want to be judgmental.
As for FOTR, I think it is a well researched book and is full of cites and sources inclduing primary sources. If there is evidence that contradicts the information found in FOTR, evidence and not speculation, I would like to see it too.
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AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2005, 01:45:23 AM »
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As for "droit - de- sejour" in England.
At present, everybody could get the passport of England if he would buy a company or something in England amount to quite big  00000000.
Why Baroness got it?
 Maybe she had already an real estate in England or big amount in the bank?

But I understand that she came to Copenhagen first.
So , maybe she got the England's permission through Marie Feodorovna, who was her god mother?


Dear Hikarushka,

Regarding the Baroness's "droit-de-sejor" in England, she did not possess any great sums in a British bank, or at least I do not believe so, and she did not invest in British companies.  My contention is that it was arranged for her very handily when she arrived there...by an emince grise.

That is why the story is NOT complete, far from it.

With all the best,


A.A.


AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2005, 01:49:38 AM »
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I  agree Robert. Although Anya is really a topic for another thread, I think that when they interrogated her they realized she was merely  fool and not worth their time.
Also, I believe AA refused to meet with the Baroness because she said the Baroness had betrayed her family. So the idea of the Baroness' betrayal has been out there long before FOTR was written. I think FOTR is just further confirmation of the idea that the Baroness betrayed the IF. People can be very deceptive.  We've seen that in history as well as here on the board
Not to be too harsh on her, I don't know what I would have done in that situation so I don't want to be judgmental.
As for FOTR, I think it is a well researched book and is full of cites and sources inclduing primary sources. If there is evidence that contradicts the information found in FOTR, evidence and not speculation, I would like to see it too.



Dear Lexi4,

Your comments on deception are quite accurate in my little opinion.  One of the major flaws of human nature, I would say.

I don't follow the Forum on the FOTR, as that is another forum indeed, a bit like Anya, so I don't know what the general take of the readers on this Board is.  I am sure that we all can agree that everyone is entitled to his or her own take of a subject without being subject to the general rule of all.

As for the betrayal, I refer all to my previous comments in an earlier posting.  The bottom line remains : "What was the trade-off"?

With all the best and thank you for your thought-provoking posting,


A.A.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2005, 02:24:17 AM »
Perhaps the trade-off was her life and her freedom.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2005, 02:44:54 AM »
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... So the idea of the Baroness' betrayal has been out there long before FOTR was written.  .... People can be very deceptive.  We've seen that in history as well as here on the board


The term "deception" is a very strong expression to employ. The very idea that such behavior was perceived to exist, would raise many fundamental issues about motive.

Lexi4,

Are you able to provide us with primary sources which you were good enough to suggest had existed; in order to support your interesting contention?

Thanks in anticipation.


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