Author Topic: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War  (Read 104091 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2004, 11:29:34 AM »
Quote
Like Rskkiya, my general impression is the Civil War was a traumatic experience with no real heroes. There is evidence of brutality and reprisals from either side at different points. Add the famine that occurred in the early 1920s and you can see what desperate straits Russia had fallen into.  


The Whites and the Reds had their heroes.  I'm sure Rskkiya can tell us about a few Red heros and I'll dig around and write about a few heroes in the White Army.

The famine is a very complex subject.  Here is a simple insight into how this occured.   The farmers through the years had learned how to grow extra ..... for this example let's say... wheat.  The extra wheat was used in case the yield the following year wasn't as good as the last.  Then, they could use the "reserved" wheat for the lean times.  This "reserve" bennifited everyone in those lean times.   Then, along came the Red Army brigades and the Bolshvik leaders.  The brigades went into the villages which were communities of farmers in the country side.  For reasons which were probably revenge, since these brigades were composed of revolutionaries of those from ghettos and very poor villages, and they swept into these villages.  They murdered villagers [men, women, and children], as  well as chickens, geese, cattle, and horses.... The homes and barns were burned... Up in flames were also the "reserved" wheat, rye, corn, etc. etc..   I need not go into details of what the Red Army did to the young girls and women.... whom they then made dance with them as they drank the village wine....  Then they went on the next village and then the next.....

The farmers who were left alive tried to salvage whatever was left to survive.  But the Red brigades returned and demanded a huge portion of their wheat crop and what would have been part of the "reserve" was impossible to save.  There were hungry children to feed....  The surviving horses and oxen were taken and the farmer had to plow his field by pulling his plow..... The Red Army brigades arrived in the farmers' villages, again, only this time they marched all the men and boys to the edge of the village, made them dig a huge trench then then lined these men and boys on the edge and executed them.....  When it was desided that a certain number of peasants were needed in camps where lumber needed to be cut, mines dug, etc. etc.,  the Red Army brigades returned to the villages and marched men, women and children to the waiting train.  One by one these box cars were filled with peasants who had been the farmers....  [Yes, I know craftsmen, smithys, shop owners, etc. were also victims but I'm showing how the famine occured.... Yet, it's true, I should have mention the others, too, because they were the ones who made the plows and tools needed for farming and their families].

"The years of truthless requisitions and predatory plundering by the Bolshevik freebooters spelled the ruination of Russian agriculture,"  wrote Joseph Height p. 328 in PARADISE ON THE STEPPE.

According to the Soviet figures, 5 million people died of starvation of the famine of 1921.  This number is probably very low.

So, the Reds Army and their leaders,  ruled by Lenin and then Czar Stalin "the Bloody",  created a situation which would take the food of life away from every single  peasants whom they had promised to bring freedom from the evil Romanov Empire.  

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Dashkova

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2004, 11:49:05 AM »
So, the Reds Army and their leaders,  ruled by Lenin and then Czar Stalin "the Bloody",  created a situation which would take the food of life away from every single  peasants whom they had promised to bring freedom from the evil Romanov Empire.  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, they *were* evil. Doesn't mean what followed was ideal or even for the best, but the thing you always overlook is that CHANGE HAD TO COME.  You might not like the way it came (few do, particularly regarding Stalin) but any brutality that followed does NOT vindicate the romanovs **whatsoever**.

Additionally, I think there was more to the famine of the early 20s than the Red Army requisitioning food.

rskkiya

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2004, 01:09:35 PM »
Yes! That was a particularly bad famine and the unfortunate habit of cannibalism (a sad fate for many Russian peasants in such situations as the 1880s famine) was particularly evident at this time.

Agrbear I have read a great deal about the Whites and if you see "a lot more good guys amongst the Whites"- then I am sorry- I cannot understand where you could be finding them! Some of the horrors perpatrated by "good guys" such as Dragomirov and Denikin are quite unspeakable...

Prouldly cally me RED
R.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2004, 03:19:13 PM »
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Well, they *were* evil. Doesn't mean what followed was ideal or even for the best, but the thing you always overlook is that CHANGE HAD TO COME.  You might not like the way it came (few do, particularly regarding Stalin) but any brutality that followed does NOT vindicate the romanovs **whatsoever**.


I repeat,  I am always in favor of democracy.  I have never expressed any country  should be under the yoke of a monarch.  And,  yes,  changes needed to be made in Russia.  I've never said otherwise.  We disagree only on how it should have been done and what kind of govt. would have been best for Russia at that time.


Quote
Yes! That was a particularly bad famine and the unfortunate habit of cannibalism (a sad fate for many Russian peasants in such situations as the 1880s famine) was particularly evident at this time.

Agrbear I have read a great deal about the Whites and if you see "a lot more good guys amongst the Whites"- then I am sorry- I cannot understand where you could be finding them! Some of the horrors perpatrated by "good guys" such as Dragomirov and Denikin are quite unspeakable...

Prouldly cally me RED
R.


Yes, yes, yes there were terrible leaders on both sides.  BOTH SIDES, also, had their heros.  Who were your heros on the Reds?

I can quote book after book after book on how the Bolsheviks caused the famine of 1921.  Since you may not understand the complexity of agriculture,  I can explain it in more detail.  Just as I can tell you the numbers and stats of those who were sent to camps.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Dashkova

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2004, 03:25:19 PM »
Agreed on many points, BUT...whoa!! I can't decide whether to shake my head and wonder or laugh at your final comments, posted below:

"Supplies are limited....  Cities and town, of course, are quite different.  Modern items like television.... etc. can be bought from the Black Market since the stores are empty accept a shelf here and there.....  Or so it seems to most Americans who are accustomed to walking into a store and having the shelves full with anything and everything for the public to buy. '

^^^^^^
I was very recently in Russia, spending weeks at a time in both the major cities and villages. Either myself, or family members visit there at least once a year.  The stores are FULL!And I mean full of just every good thing, many of which are American/English products with Russian writing on the labels.

The *only* time there were empty shelves was during parts of the Stalin era and then when the mad fool Gorbachev took over.  All those clips on the news in the late 80s-early 90s of empty shelves were a result of his reforms!

Wow, I am really, really amazed that there is anyone out there (who seems pretty informed otherwise) who still buys into the empty shelve thing.
Wait. let me guess. You think they stood (and still stand) in line for toilet paper, too, right?
Sorry, but this is just too funny.



Dashkova

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2004, 03:31:16 PM »
One of my favorite places to hang out in Moscow, when I want a little bit of reminders of home is the very nice Menage underground mall, just off Red Square.  I promise you, if you enter here, except for the language difference, this could be a mall in D.C., Denver, NY, LA, London, Sydney, well, just like everywhere else!

Oh, and mustn't forget the elegant GUM, which in most cases was a tad too pricey for the likes of myself! Lots of designer boutiques and such.

Just outside of central St. Petersburg is Lenta, the Russian equivalent of  Super Wal-Mart. (open 24/7)

Even little Suzdal and Vladimir (three hours outside of Moscow) and Ekaterinburg (two hour flight from the center) have shopping areas very similar to what you'd find in the west.  All with full shelves.  Once, on our way back from a little village near Abramtsevo, we stopped at the cutest little "country store" that was chock full of groceries, including lots of western brands.

How old are the books you've been reading??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Dashkova

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2004, 03:39:28 PM »
AGRBear

What was the point of editing that out, when it had been copied and pasted in another post?  Can you see how it is hard to buy into some of what you post, when you write so passionately about something that is patently untrue? In this case I refer specifically to the situation in Russia today.

rskkiya

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2004, 05:35:38 PM »
agrbear...

So you are an expert on agriculture?  Yet you were unfamiliar with crop rotation?
TOO FUNNY!

Sigh...yes dear, there were "baddies" on both sides.
I was especially horrified with some of the Whites pogroms; foolish me, I thought that the upper class would have behaved in a more civilized manner  :D!
I won't post a lot about them here, simply because children often visit this site...(please read some of the many books that I have suggested again and again...)


I do like General Brusilov

R.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2004, 10:20:27 PM »
Quote
agrbear...

...So you are an expert on agriculture?  Yet you were unfamiliar with crop rotation?...
TOO FUNNY!
I do like General Brusilov
R.


What on earth, excuse the pun, are you talking about?  Crop rotation??  If you are referring to the fact that on another thread I had said I wasn't sure when crop rotation started in Russia,  I didn't.  That surly doesn't mean I don't know about crop rotation.  And, since I am not an expert and the first generation who doesn't live on a farm,  I certainly will never claim that I am.  However, I do have a lot of data on how the famine occured due to the Bolsheviks mismanagement and facts about the other horrible acts they inflected upon peasant farmers in Russia under Lenin and then Stalin.  I  have heard enough stories from eye witnesses about what happen to the farmers.   And, I have many books about what occured in the southern part of the Ukraine which was producing the highest yield of crops by the early 1900s to 1917.

Yes, I know  how horrible some of the peasant farmers had lived under the Tsar.  But that is for another thead under Imperial Russian History.

Since this thread is about the Whites and the Reds,  let us be honest about what both sides did to each other.

I can not and will not view certain White leaders as heros.  So, throwing at me names of White Army officers, who were cruel  and should not be anyone's hero,  isn't  necessary.   I have never believed the end justifies the means.

You mention "General Brusilov" was one of your heros.

For those of you who do not know who he was:  His full name was Aleksey Alekseyevich Brusilov.  He lived from 1853-1925.  He was a "sucessful commander of the First World War".  He advised Tsar Nicholas II to abdicate....Then he was appointed by Kornilov to the position of  "supreme" commander-in-chief of the Russian forces in the summer of 1917 under the Provisional Govt., then he joined the Red Army after the Bolshevik "takeover".  

It appears you chose someone who was in the Tsarists Army,  a White and then Red.  Interesting.

It, also,  apears, he, too, thought the Provisional Govt.  had some kind of  future.  Do you have anything he wrote about his views about the Provisional Govt?  

The various books I have do not tell me when or why he joined the Red Army.  Do you know?  Was this change over due to his discovery he believed in what the Bolsheviks promised or was he making a political change to survive in Russia?

AGRBear


"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2004, 10:41:59 PM »
Quote
AGRBear

What was the point of editing that out, when it had been copied and pasted in another post?  Can you see how it is hard to buy into some of what you post, when you write so passionately about something that is patently untrue? In this case I refer specifically to the situation in Russia today.


What did I edit out???? ???   The only editing I do is spelling when I see a mistake.....

Since I have never been in Russia,  I only know what others have told me.  So,  I'm glad to hear in the last few years the shelves are full and my friends don't have to take a suitcase full of toliet paper ;D.

How far south have you traveled?  Odessa?  Surrounding areas?  Siberia?  

My friends were  in southern Russia two or three years ago.  I have photographs of horse pulled carts.  No cars.  A common well.  Dirt floors....  One tractor that was in running condition....  In one of the villages a  new school was being built from funds collected by ex-villagers who had been part of the deportation in 1940 to Germany....

I do hope prosperity to all.

AGRBear

Edit #1 >>"Supplies are limited....  Cities and town, of course, are quite different.  Modern items like television.... etc. can be bought from the Black Market since the stores are empty accept a shelf here and there.....  Or so it seems to most Americans who are accustomed to walking into a store and having the shelves full with anything and everything for the public to buy. '<<

 Hmmmm, what may have happen was I accidently posted something I had not completed ..... An oops on my part.  Not sure what year I was thinking about.... There was probably some paragraph before this one already edited out... Golly, having a senior moment.   Anyway, my guardians will keep me on the straight and narrow.   8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Dashkova

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2004, 10:53:05 PM »
Quote

What did I edit out???? ???  The only editing I do is spelling when I see a mistake.....

Since I have never been in Russia,  I only know what others have told me.  So,  I'm glad to hear in the last few years the shelves are full and my friends don't have to take a suitcase full of toliet paper ;D.

How far south have you traveled?  Odessa?  Surrounding areas?  Siberia?  

My friends were  in southern Russia last year.  I have photographs of horse pulled carts.  No cars.  A common well.  Dirt floors....  One tractor that was in running condition....  In one of the villages a  new school was being built from funds collected by ex-villagers who had been part of the deportation in 1940 to Germany....

I do hope prosperity to all.

AGRBear





I was referring to this passage, which I copied and pasted into my response.  Here it is again:

"Supplies are limited....  Cities and town, of course, are quite different.  Modern items like television.... etc. can be bought from the Black Market since the stores are empty accept a shelf here and there.....  Or so it seems to most Americans who are accustomed to walking into a store and having the shelves full with anything and everything for the public to buy. '


Excuse me, but are you trying to deny that you wrote this and then deleted this portion from your post? If you are then you are lying.

Your statement in question proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have never been to Russia, because anyone who has been would never write what you did.

Travels?  I have family in Odessa, Ekaterinburg (where I did get out to Siberia), good friends in Moscow, the Crimea, and Petersburg.  Of course there are poor in this country that are still struggling in many ways.  (We've got our ghettos, Appalachia, etc in the states too, and also plenty of well-stocked stores)  

What exactly do you mean when you say Southern Russia?  The American media has, of late, been inaccurately calling the Chechen border as "southern Russia".  One thing is for sure, most of the former soviet republics are not faring so well on their own, but then, they didn't want to be Russian, but have their own autonomy, so of course it's going to be more difficult for them to recover economically.

But to just make a broad pronouncement about black market tv's (puhhlleaze) and empty shelves, well, it's laughable to anyone who has ever travelled to Russia since the mid-90s, and frankly, from the Khruchev era to the start of Gorbachev.

As to the toilet paper thing, this is just really choice US propaganda.  If you know any Russian people at  all, you know that they are among the most resouceful people on earth and it is highly unlikely they would ever have stood in line for hours for something for which they had many substitutes!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2004, 11:10:54 PM »
Please see my last post, again.  

I don't deny writing it.  

I did say I've never been to Russia.

As for writing southern Russia,  it is incorrect.  I should have said southern part of Russia.  

AGRBear

edit #1:  Let's get back to the subject of Reds and Whites.
edit #2:  Like to know more about General Brusilov
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2004, 09:18:48 AM »
Agrbear...
You seem to know all about Brusilov...so why should I continue this conversation ?

I won't continue a debate with a woman who lies.

We all make mistakes, but only the mature are willing to admit them and take responsibility for them.

this is over
R.

Offline Mike

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2004, 10:40:06 AM »
Quote
As to the toilet paper thing ... it is highly unlikely they would ever have stood in line for hours for something for which they had many substitutes!

I've tried not to get involved in this heated discussion, but this particular and sensitive point needs to be clarified.

Toilet paper was in permanent short supply as long as I remember myself having used it  :-[. Very long lines for this coveted item were a customary view in Moscow and Leningrad. Almost elsewhere there were no lines simply because they didn't sell it. Had everybody (e.g. me) had to stand in those lines for hours? The answer is no, because toilet paper was a part of food rations regularly supplied (for money, not free) to employees at factories, offices, universities etc. Other typical items in such rations included salami sausage, mayonnaise,  canned green peas, canned sprats, jam, chocolate bonbons in nice carton boxes etc.

It's true that Soviet people were highly resourceful and Pravda newspaper was readily available to everyone, but they were also striving for some comfort and, I'd say, human dignity in their everyday life. I don't wish to list other things which every normal Western-culture person (especially a woman) takes for granted, and which were unavailable and often unknown to 99% of the USSR population.

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2004, 10:46:51 AM »
I remember when I was in Leningrad and Moscow in 1978 there was very little TP in the hotel, even for foreigners...and I met some locals who begged me to bring some from the hotel for them...I confess I snagged a whole roll of a maids cart and hid it under my parka for them...LOL. They were so grateful they cooked a huge meal with lots of vodka as a thank you...I had thought they were joking but they weren't.  There were always long queues in the street for things then...people would get online and then ask what the line was for...There was very little to buy in the regular shops, only the hard-currency stores had much of anything for sale...It was a dismal and startling thing to see compared to the US for me.  Cabdrivers would waive a long day's fare in exchange for ballpoint pens, cigarettes or chewing gum. Those things were worth far more than rubles in those days.