Author Topic: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War  (Read 102263 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2004, 10:47:15 AM »
After taking another look, I probably had desided that this particular thought didn't belong under White and Reds. And, yes, I did make a mistake because I must not have rechecked and did not make sure everything was deleted..... And, thank you for showing this error. :)

AGRBear

Edit #1: While I was writing the two persons above wrote about the toliet paper. Thanks for your additions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Dashkova

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2004, 11:00:38 AM »
Quote
I remember when I was in Leningrad and Moscow in 1978 there was very little TP in the hotel, even for foreigners...and I met some locals who begged me to bring some from the hotel for them...I confess I snagged a whole roll of a maids cart and hid it under my parka for them...LOL. They were so grateful they cooked a huge meal with lots of vodka as a thank you...I had thought they were joking but they weren't. There were always long queues in the street for things then...people would get online and then ask what the line was for...There was very little to buy in the regular shops, only the hard-currency stores had much of anything for sale...It was a dismal and startling thing to see compared to the US for me. Cabdrivers would waive a long day's fare in exchange for ballpoint pens, cigarettes or chewing gum. Those things were worth far more than rubles in those days.



I guess it's who you ask and what were their circumstances. My entire Russian family is adamant that they seldom had difficulty obtaining this item, and on the rare occasion did not feel a loss of dignity having to use a substitute. However, I will also add that these same family members were also party members and commonly shopped at the better stores. Also, I have been told that shortages of whatever items were far more common in the capital and in Leningrad, and the long lines were not the norm in smaller cities and towns.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Dashkova

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2004, 11:02:38 AM »
I've tried not to get involved in this heated discussion, but this particular and sensitive point needs to be clarified.


***Clarified according to your own experiences and observations.  Last time I checked, you were not the only person to experience life in the USSR.

Offline Mike

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1324
    • View Profile
    • Erast Fandorin Museum
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2004, 11:42:15 AM »
Quote
Clarified according to your own experiences and observations .

[size=10]Trying to stay within the toilet paper issue...[/size] Also those of a few hundreds of my relatives, friends and work colleagues. It seems weird that somebody would wish to question such a commonly known and experienced fact. Like I would say "I usually felt cold in Leningrad in January" - and hear in response: "According to your own experiences and observations". You say your relatives were parrty members. A third of employees at my last job in Leningrad were party members - they had no toilet paper privileges and didn't shop in special stores. One had to hold a senior position within the party/state establishment (or be his/her close relative) to have the toilet paper home-delivered together with large cartons of quality food and drinks.

rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2004, 11:51:35 AM »
Sadly everyone seems to have forgotten that this topic is THE WHITES / REDS IN THE CIVIL WAR

Do start a thread on "Modern myths about Soviet Toilet Paper" if you are so inclined...

arrgg
R.

Offline Mike

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1324
    • View Profile
    • Erast Fandorin Museum
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2004, 12:10:31 PM »
You're right - but only partly  :(. The advantage of discussing Soviet toilet paper is our ability to establish the truth - e.g. the percentage of former Soviet citizens who still preferred to use Izvestiya while being amply provided with Finnish-made four-ply creme-colored violet-scented toilet paper imprinted with Brezhnev quotations. The Whites Vs Reds... no truth, no reliable and verifiable facts, no winners, only loosers and victims...

Offline Louise

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 459
    • View Profile
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2004, 12:17:04 PM »
I for one am enjoying how this thread has digressed. I have been home this week with the flu, so it's kinda fitting that you should mention toilet paper. ::)

Actually I have been enjoying this thread and educating myself in the civil war of Russia. I've enjoyed the absurd as well as the intelligent comments put forth by board members.

Thanks all.

Louise

The sign of a sick mind is studying for a final exam and thinking it's the

Offline Lisa

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
  • Alix & Ella
    • View Profile
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2004, 12:25:49 PM »
Quote
It seems weird that somebody would wish to question such a commonly known and experienced fact. Like I would say "I usually felt cold in Leningrad in January" - and hear in response: "According to your own experiences and observations". You say your relatives were parrty members. A third of employees at my last job in Leningrad were party members - they had no toilet paper privileges and didn't shop in special stores. One had to hold a senior position within the party/state establishment (or be his/her close relative) to have the toilet paper home-delivered together with large cartons of quality food and drinks.

Without joking (I know the problem  ;), despite that I was in Russia in 1993, and never in URSS) I think it's very caracteristic of the nomenklatura, of the privileged persons!...

rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2004, 12:31:12 PM »
Topic Please!!!


The White movement vs the Red in the Civil War...Noone came out of this with clean hands but I think that some of the issues here can be discussed, some of them comical, some of them tragic, some of them horrific, all of them moving...

Anyone wish to comment on the Ice March?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Dashkova

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2004, 06:18:07 PM »
Quote
[size=10]Trying to stay within the toilet paper issue...[/size] Also those of a few hundreds of my relatives, friends and work colleagues. It seems weird that somebody would wish to question such a commonly known and experienced fact. Like I would say "I usually felt cold in Leningrad in January" - and hear in response: "According to your own experiences and observations". You say your relatives were parrty members. A third of employees at my last job in Leningrad were party members - they had no toilet paper privileges and didn't shop in special stores. One had to hold a senior position within the party/state establishment (or be his/her close relative) to have the toilet paper home-delivered together with large cartons of quality food and drinks.



Hey there, I am not questioning the TP issue whatsoever. Where have I questioned it? And, surprise, I've got a couple hundred relatives, friends, business associates too, most of whom lived in both the USSR and the Russian Federation.  A couple of them come pretty darn close to having lived before either!
But, yes, you *did* clarify it according to your experiences (and those you know), just as I have.  I think "Clarify" is an exceedingly poor choice of words, as it implies the other person is confused or lying. Not the case here.

And did you not know that party members who worked *abroad*, yes *abroad* were paid in certificates when they got home, certificates that could only be used in certain -- well-stocked -- shops.  And I am not talking about upper rank party members, just average ones who happened to spend much of their career abroad.

Sunny

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2004, 06:40:41 PM »
Forum Admin, sounds like the first half hour of "Moscow on the Hudson".

Sunny

Dashkova

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2004, 06:52:59 PM »
Horrible film, embarrasing to watch with Russians to be sure.  One for the waste bin...or (to keep in theme), the toilet.

Ok, no more of the latter, as I am sticking with what I said to begin with.

rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2004, 09:31:09 PM »
Bozhmoi! I hated that movie ..mostly because I cannot stand to see R. Williams hamm it up all the time. Acckk.

Well - The Ice march was a terrible situation in the early civil war. The white forces were forced to march followed by a long train of hangers on ...they say that the route was red with blood due to the number of people who unable to keep up, took suicide ove being left behind...
This traumatic event actually was able to solidify and toughen up a lot of the whites - who were by no means all of one mind over what they wanted, (some wanted elections, some wanted a New Tsar & some wanted a constitutional monarchy) and while they never all agreed on one goal they were able to forge a fighting force after this dreadful event...
I will get out my texts and detail the date, the location and the reasons for the march in my next post.

R.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Nik_Cornish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2004, 06:09:05 AM »
Quote
I think you're right Joanna. But I have a book in front of me that says " . . . they endured only so long as they retained the support of foreign governments . . . all the White leaders recieved money and equipment from abroad . . . from the Japanese, France, Britain, United States, Italy, Serbia, Finland, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey".

I suppose I took some liberty by saying they recieved "extensive" help. ;)


The Whites, wherever located, received immense amounts of military aid from abroad. In the case of the Volunteer Army/Armed forces of Southern Russia/Wrangel's Russian Army it was in the region of 100,000,000 worth. In the case of the VA/AFSR British instructors were also in place, some of the tank corps instructors fought at Tsaritsyn in 1919. In the north the stocks at Archangel and Murmansk had been already paid for so were the property of whichever Russian appeared with the correct invoice (or a train) the same situation maintained in Vladivostok.

Offline Olga

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2004, 08:02:01 AM »
Quote
I don't wish to list other things which every normal Western-culture person (especially a woman) takes for granted, and which were unavailable and often unknown to 99% of the USSR population.


TAMPONS. You can say it Mike, it's not a dirty word.