Author Topic: Another ebay helmet?  (Read 6833 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thomas B. LeMay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2005, 07:03:53 AM »
Dear Mr. Hall,

Unfortunately, there is no single reference in regard to this subject (at least I am unaware of one).  Many different books have individual photographs but none provide a comprehensive review of the topic.

If another reader is aware of such a source.  I would also be interested in obtaining a copy.  Sadly, I do not think it exists at this time.

Brad LeMay
 
Thomas B. LeMay
blemay@cablelynx.com

Offline Vladik

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • D'oh!
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2005, 10:14:06 AM »
Found these two pictures in a magazine. Notice the higher quality scroll and St. Andrew's star on the Pavlovski Mitre, also there's a different color used in the back. On the Semenovski Helmet the top rim should be made of golden "galun", not yellow cloth. Also the star is obviously a reproduction.  :)


Offline Thomas B. LeMay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2005, 10:40:33 AM »
Dear Vlad,

While not endorsing the kiwer which you are referring to; please note that you are comparing an officers version of the shako to that of enlisted ranks.  The top braid for non officers is indeed yellow or white cloth (depending on the regiment in question).  As to the reference to a different color on the "back" of the Pavlovski miter...I have no idea as to what you are referring.

Brad
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by atlantis »
Thomas B. LeMay
blemay@cablelynx.com

Offline Mr._Panaev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Vivat Zaar Peter Alexev
    • View Profile
    • My eBay auctions in Progress
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2005, 11:23:19 AM »
On the Shako -- Ditto for the non-enameled Star -- soldier's shakos didn't have enameled stars or gold galun.

The moral is -- if you found one image which differs from the actual item you see, that doesn't NECESSARILY mean that the item you see is fake. I don't mean to be hostile to anyone, but I actually held all my items in my own hands, inspected them, showed them to other collectors and experts and ALL said that the items are genuine. I know it is hard to judge from images alone and items require live visual inspection to be proved or disproved genuine that is why I am so disturbed by some members of this and other boards stating that the item is 100% fake without even bothering to contact the seller for additional images and more information.

To answer to Mr. Doubrovin: I offer unconditional guarantee on ALL items, should you even purchase any of my items and it proves to be not genuine I will be happy to take it back for full refund.

Pavlovsky Mitre, indeed, had a reddish color back:


Shenk:


Offline Daniel Briere

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2005, 11:35:02 AM »
Hi all!

A few comments about this thread and Mr Panaev’s imput. This is a discussion board, not an experts’ forum. Most of us are here to learn. Some are willing to share their information (hopefully, reliable) or experience (good or bad). This is what’s nice about this place. Everybody is free to offer opinions, advice and information when asked for it. No one asks for credentials, although I hope that those who post “informed opinions” are ready to back them up. But other members are entitled to express doubts or ask questions about certain items they see on sale. As most of what we see is very expensive, I feel it’s normal for people to do some research and ask for advice before spending some serious money on items they can’t examine and have to make a judgement about solely on the basis of photos. Of course they should be careful not to make generalizations about dealers or other people.

As Brad LeMay pointed out, from time to time some honest dealers will have some questionable items, which doesn’t mean they’re of bad faith. The same goes for auction houses (I’ve seen some very dubious items at one house Dmitry mentioned): even the experts working for auction houses can’t know everything. And sadly, I feel that the lure of fast money often blinds many dealers and auctioneers. As passion sometimes clouds the judgement of some collectors. So everybody should be careful. There is no way that all the Imperial Russian militaria which I have seen on eBay and other sites in the recent years can be genuine : people from the former Soviet Union might be selling their grandfathers’ treasures which weren’t previously available in the West, but by now so much stuff has appeared on the market that there shouldn’t be anything left in any attic or basement, not even in museums. I have seen enough to equip the whole Imperial Russian Army again!!

With respect, Dmitry, to me “satisfied collectors” aren’t necessarily experts. Just because they are happy with what they bought – or to proud to admit they made a mistake! – doesn’t prove that everything you (or anyone else) offer is genuine. Expertise from recognized people in the field would – and I know of very few of them that are still alive. So I also rely on those of us who have read extensively on the subject, done their research and acquired experience through years of collecting and visiting museums and private collections (as I have). It is nice of you to offer “1000% genuine items guaranteed as such”: I think 100% would be more than enough! … but do you mean that you will pay 1000% for any item proven by independent expertise to be a fake?

This said, I agree with Brad LeMay: from what I can tell by looking at photos, Mr Panaev often offers some fine items, and great books too! But I do have some major concerns about the shako Vladik pointed out to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6521270093&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores

I  wouldn’t go so far as Vladik in thinking it’s an obvious fake. But one thing I am sure about: it’s NOT a Guards’ Semenovsky kiver (shako). As it’s not an officer’s shako the black color is correct. The white metal St. Andrew’s star could be OK (although most of the Guards Infantry soldiers’ stars I have seen were painted). But the body of the shako (kolpak) itself can’t be Semenovsky: although it has a blue band with red piping, the vertical piping on the sides is red: Semenovsky had white. If it’s a Guards’ shako (Military schools had similar shakos too), this color combination (blue band with red piping, red side piping) can only point to Grenadersky.

The honor scroll seems to be “Za otlichie v Turetskuyu voinu 1877 i 1878 godov.” which, in the Guards, only 3 units had, all in the Artillery (1st Brigade’s 6th Battery; 2nd Brigade’s 3rd & 6th Batteries). Semenovksy would have “Za Pravets 10 i 11 Noyabrya 1877 goda.”  and Grenadersky “ Za Gornyi Dubniak 12 Oktyabrya 1877 goda.”

Long black plume (sultan): only the 4th regiments of a division had it (Egersky, Finlandsky & Volynsky). Semenovsky and Grenadersky had a white one, as shown on your Shenk schematic.

If I’m not mistaken, the width of the yellow braid would indicate the rank of NCO. If it’s the case, I’m not sure the cockade is right.  Of course the “kutas” (tress?) in the back of the shako is missing..

All this said, I have no idea what it is! I feel it is some kind of composite shako, probably made with genuine parts, but coming from different units. It would have made a nice shako for His Majesty’s Own Combined Infantry Regiment…if they had one! I would gladly buy it for parts (at a reasonable price of course) but not as a Semenovsky Regiment’s shako.

So “The devil is in the details!” I think dealers, as well as buyers, should pay more attention to them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by DanielB »
Daniel Briere

Offline Thomas B. LeMay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2005, 03:32:08 PM »
Hello to everyone,

Perhaps I may tell you a brief story.  About three years ago, my friend Gerard Gorkhoff contacted me concerning a large group of headgear (shakos and visor caps for the most part) which had been brought to France by a dealer.  We examined the pieces and noted several odd characteristics.  First of all, none of the Guard stars on the officers items were original and even more interesting all of the mounts such as honor scrolls, chinscales, etc. were incorrect.  Don't get me wrong, all of the parts (except the stars) were original but were simply attached to a helmet or cap body without regard to accuracy.  Some times, two pieces sitting side by side could have the parts reversed and they would then have both been correct.  It turns out that the items had been kept in a theatre costume storage in Moscow.  Before storing them, all of the metal parts for some reason had been removed and stored separately.  I have no idea why this was done.  When brought to France for sale, someone then reattached what they thought looked "OK" irregardless of accuracy.  The point is that many items are indeed original but with various parts married to them in a like fashion.  If you are patient, eventually one can correct these inaccuracies and end up with some very good items at fair prices.  On the other hand, there are hundreds of fake items now flooding the market so you really must know at what you are looking.  The very dealer who I mentioned above has since received a number of these copies which he has offered for sale in good faith.  He is very honest but is not an expert in this area and simply believed what he was told by his sources.  The moral of the story is that both good and bad pieces may come from any dealer without malicious intent.  The collector must judge each item that appears for its own merit and then convince himself as to which are worth pursuing.

I will close with a personal comment in regard to two of the individuals involved with this post.  Daniel and Michael (Misha) are true historians and gentlemen.  I for one am always impressed with their wealth of information.

With respect to all,

Brad LeMay

P.S.  Did anyone wonder why the Guard stars on the pieces I mentioned were incorrect despite the other parts being original?  Apparently when the group of items was sent to the west for sale, all of the high quality stars were sold separately.  Several showed up with the addition of a back plate and pin masquerading as a breast star of St. Andrew.  Amazing but true.

Brad LeMay
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by atlantis »
Thomas B. LeMay
blemay@cablelynx.com

Offline Daniel Briere

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
    • View Profile
Re: Another ebay helmet?
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2005, 06:03:14 PM »
Thank you Brad for your kind words and amazing (but very sad) story. It confirms the feeling I had about the Semenovsky shako (or should I now say Grenadersky with various other parts?). And it provides the answer to what has been a major riddle for me: apparently genuine headgear with incorrect parts, which casted doubts on the whole pieces (not to mention the honesty of the dealers). They didn’t look like fakes or repros but didn’t make much sense to me. Now they do!

It’s very unfortunate they haven’t been reassembled properly. I guess they are now scattered all over the world, so putting all the original parts back together would no doubt be a major global puzzle!

As for Guard’s star masquerading as a Star of St. Andrew, now that you mention it, I think I have seen one just like that. I was puzzled by it, as it’s quality wasn’t as high as what should be expected for such rare orders.

Best regards and Happy Easter!.

Daniel Briere