Author Topic: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia  (Read 53470 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2005, 06:11:11 PM »


This map shows how close  to Petrograd [St. Petersburg]  the anti-Bolshevik forces reached by 1919.  The dark area to the south and the line [latice work] to the north.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2005, 11:27:31 PM »
Quote
I refer those who want to read more about the Allied intervention to the Hoover Institute online list of their holdings.  These books and documents run into the many thousands of pages.  It's obviously impossible to recall each and every mention of Gen. Graves.  He was thought to be a strict constructiionist of Wilson's aide memoir and not equipped to deal with the extremely complex situation in Siberia where, despite orders to the contrary, American troops were engaged in active fighting.  
I think it was pretty much kill or be killed.



Many were killed and wounded before Allied troops were forced to leave Vladi. when the Bolsheviks took over.

Books;  Fogelson, America's Secret War Against the Bolsheviks
Ward, With the DieHards in Siberia
Bradley, Allied Intervention in Russia  1917-1920
Jackson, At War With the Bolsheviks
and of course Graves's own autobio.

This is just the tip of the iceberg but provides references to other work in this historical period.  E



Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2005, 04:23:39 PM »
John Culloton wrote:

>>Graves determined that he would form his command into 250 man provisional companies with men from each of the states: if there were heavy casualties, Graves didn't want them all from the same place. By August 10, Graves had detached 5,002 men from the 8th Infantry Division which included forty-eight sergeants, ninety-six corporals, thirty-nine first and 24 second lieutenants. His command left San Francisco on August 15th aboard the Sheridan and Thomas, converted cattle ships. He reached Vladivostok on the bay of the Golden Horn on September 1, where he merged his command with 3,011 officers and men of the 27th (53 officers and 1537 enlisted men) and 31st (46 officers and 1375 enlisted men) Infantry Regiments, Regular Army, who had left Manila for Vladivostok three weeks before.<<

The rest of his article is found on
http://www.militaria.com/8th/WW1/siberia.html

Another article with photo of Graves and staff, Russia 1918:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wgraves.htm

Graves and his staff in Russia in 1917:



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2005, 05:11:15 PM »
Here is an interesting side note about one of the guns, a Colt 45, which one of the Amercians brought into Russia which ended up in the hands of the Bolshvick Yurovsky who claimed he shot and killed Nicholas II with this particular gun..

THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE CZAR by Shay McNeal:
 
On p. 164
 
She talks about the Colt 45 which  is said by the Bolsheviks to have been the weapon which killed Nicholas II.
 
"It's serial number was 71905.  In tracking down the weapon, I obtained additional information the Colt Company historian Kathleen Holt.  If the serial number 71905 were followed by a letter, then the gun would have been part of a Colt shipment to Russia, possibly through France.  But if there was no letter following the serial number, then the history of Yurovsky's gun wold be quite different.  Colt's archives indicate that the gun model 1911 serial number 71905 (without any letter tagged on at the end) was manufactures in 1914 and was sold to the United States government.  It was delivered to the Ordnance Officer at Fort Thomas, Kentucky on 30 April 1914, one of 150 weapons received.  The 45s were issued to officers, military police and pilots only.
 
"Thus the self-proclaimed leader of the assassins, at least according to the serial number Radzinsky gave, was using an American army issue gun.  Yet American was not supposed to have a military presence in Russia in July 1918.  The US finally sent troops to Siberia approxiamately six weeks later under the command of General William Graves.  If the serial number Radzinsky quotes is right, then how did the Colt 45 from Kenturcky end up in the hands of Yurovsky?"
 
How did it end up in Yurovsky's hands six weeks before the Americans with Graves landed on Russian soil?

American troops had landed at Archangel in August 1918.... That still too late for it to be in the hands of Yurovsky on the 16 / 17th of July....

Was there  an American in the area of Ekaterinburg before 16 th of July 1918?   If so, who was he and what was he doing there?  Was the American captured by the Bolshviks and that's  how the Colt 45 ended up in the hands of Yurovsky?

According to McNeal, the gun was issued to an officer or to a member of the military police or to a pilot  "at Fort Thomas, Kentucky on or after 30 April 1914".

A new mystery?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2005, 07:42:34 PM »
Corection of earlier post which was in error in which I placed the wrong information about Ermakov's Mauser and Yurovsky's Colt 45.  The following is, now, correct:
Ermakov's Mauser>> 

Here is a gun which resembles the Colt 45,an American made gun,  which is what Yurovsy claimed he used to kill Nicholas II:


I should also note:  It was my error and not Shay McNeal's
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2005, 09:43:00 PM »
Quote
The Colt 45 which Yurovsky claimed he used to shoot Nicholas II.



AGRBear


Just one problem:  The gun in this picture is not a Colt  It's a Mauser.

JK

Offline lexi4

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2005, 11:39:21 PM »
JK,
good work. That's funny. If you are correct, I have to wonder about the credability of the information provided by McNeal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2005, 09:13:33 AM »
Gun photo didn't come out of McNeal's book but another.

The following photograph is a Mauser, the one which Ermakov claimed he used to kill Nicholas II.



<< Ermakov who is being photograph not far from the mass grave which was found in Pig's Meadow.

Thankyou J_Kenrick for correcting my blunder.

Ermakov used a Mauser, which he said he used to shoot and kill Nicholas II,  and,  Yurovsky used a Colt 45, which Yurovsky claimed he used to shoot and kill Nicholas II.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2005, 01:48:33 PM »
Quote
Gun photo didn't come out of McNeal's book but another.

The following photograph is a Mauser, the one which Ermakov claimed he used to kill Nicholas II.

<< Ermakov's Mauser

Thank you bear for clearing that up.  :)
Thankyou J_Kenrick for correcting my blunder.

Ermakov used a Mauser, which he said he used to shoot and kill Nicholas II,  and,  Yurovsky used a Colt 45, which Yurovsky claimed he used to shoot and kill Nicholas II.

AGRBear

Thank you bear for clearing that up.  :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Fawzia

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2005, 12:48:17 PM »
Now I looked and I didn't see it, but if this already has been discussed then just tell me and I'll go find it.   :)

Now this is kind of vague, but my history teacher years ago mentioned sort of as an afterthought to a lesson that American soldiers were sent to Russia during the civil war, and that they of course ended up pulling out because it was just way over their heads.  

Which side were they fighting for?  I'm guessing the Whites...?   What led Woodrow Wilson to this action?   How long were they even there for?

This is one thing I've obviously missed, I never heard it mentioned but that one time, not in books, not on documentaries...?  Is it a really obscure and fogotten fact or have I just really been missing the boat for a while?
:-[

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2005, 06:41:04 PM »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2005, 06:48:43 PM »
FIGHTING THE BOLSHEVIKS by Donald E. Carey, U.S. Army, 1918-1919
p. 41

5 Sept 1918

"...at 1600 had to shoulder my pack and rifle and march on deck with the rest of E Comapny.  Down the gangplank we went and I stepped on the blood-cursed soil of the despotic czars."

"After the usual delay we marched across the rotten planks of a vast wharf dotted with large warehouses, arriving at a gate where a dingy Russian soldier stood guard.  The gate was swung open.  If I had stepped on Russian soil upon leaving the Nagorya [ship], I now wallowed in it.  The mile or less of cobblestone street along our route was covered with six to eight inches of dark, sloppy mud."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Fawzia

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2005, 08:18:13 PM »
Thanks!!   :) :) :)

How the heck did I miss that?!   :-[ :D

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2005, 03:29:09 PM »
FIGHTING THE BOLSHEVIKS by Donard E. Carey, U.S. Army, 1918-1919

Some soliders of E Company, which included our author, took a tug to Bakaritza....

20 Sept to 23 Oct 1918

He wrote:

p. 53:

"Guarding the stock at Bakaritz was a small force of English, Scots, Russians, French and, and other American troops besides E Company."


"While looking at the large transports anchored only fifty yards away I noticed a comouflaged floatplane, capture by our troops as they fought southward along the railroad."

p. 59

"Our men often critized the English for, among other things, their refusal to salute Americans."

"I thought we were treated with more considereation by English officers than by our own, who were formal and terse.  If some of the incidents I heard were true, it was the English who had cuased to complain.  One corporal told me that, when asked by anEnglish officer why he did not salute, he said:  "We quit doing that in 1776!"

p. 61:

...Corporal Damagalski told me a wireless was received stating the war had ended."

"Officers and men spent the night in a drunken spree."

p. 62

"Early in the morning I was told our company had been ordered to the front."



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2005, 04:21:22 PM »
If you'd like to read a different kind of battle fought by an American who was on the opposite side of the American soldiers sent to defeat the Bolsheviks,   there was the fighter who didn't raise his sword but used his typewriter.  His name was John Reed who wrote: TEN DAYS THAT SHOOK THE WORLD.  One of the few books where you'll see the author's name larger than the title of the book.

John Reed was born in Portland, Oregon in the year 1887.  He became a correspondent, first in the Mexican War of 1916, then a reporter in WWI which took him to Russia.  He became "Red" John Reed who spread the socialist word.  He died of typhus in 1920 and was buried in Red Square in the Heroes' Grave with a plaque on the Kremlin wall which commenorates his service to the Communist-Labour Party in Russia  and in the USA, which was just forming at that time.

Some lines from his book:

p. 255-6

"It was on 18 November that the snow came.  In the morning we woke to window-ledges heaped white, and snowflakes falling so whirling thick that it was impossible to see ten feet...."

"I sat...in a traktir -- a kind of lower-class inn- across the street from the gates of Smolny; a low-ceiling, loud place called 'Uncle Tom's Cabin', much frequeted by Red Guards.  They crowded it now, packed close around the little tables with their dirty table-cloths and enormous china tepots, filling the place with foul cigarette smoke, while the harassed waiter ran about crying 'Seichass!  Seichass!  In a inute!  Right away!"

"In one corner sat a man in the uniform of a captain, addressing the assembly, which interrupted him at every few words.

'You are no better than murderes! he cried.  'Shooting down your Russian brothers on the streets!'

'When did we do that?' asked a worker.

'Last Sunday you did it, when the yunkers--'

'Well, didn't they shoot us?' One man exhibited his arm in a sling.  'Haven't I got something to remember them by, the devils?'

The captin shouted at the top of his voice.  'You should remain neutral!  You should remain neutral!  Who are you to destroy the legal Governemnt?  Who is Lenin?  A German--'

'Who are you?  A counter-revolutionist!  A provocator!' they bellowed at him.

When he could make himself heard the captain stood up. 'All right!' said he.  'You call yourselves the people of Russia. But you're not the people of Russia.  The peasants are the people of Russia.  Wait until the peasants--'

'Yes,' they cried, 'wait until the peasants speak.  We know what the peasasnts will say... Aren't they working-men like ourselves?'"

Reed tells us in his next paragraph p. 256:

"In the long run everything depended upon the peasants.  While the peasants had been politically backward, still they had their own peculair idea, and they consituted more than eighty per cent of the people of Russia.  The Bolsheviki had a comparatievly small following among the peasants;  and a permenent dictatorship of Russia by the industrial workers was impossible... The traditional peasant party was the Socialist Revolutionary party; of all the parties now supporting the Soviet Government, the Left Socialist Revolutionaries were logical inheritors  of the peasant leadership-- and the Left Socialist Revolutionaries, who were at the mercy of the organized city proletariat, desperately needed the back of the peasants..."

Like so many supporters of the Socialist Revolution,  John Reed had no idea that the socialist Lenin would become a dictator who would be as cruel and as harsh as any Tsar before him and who would break almost all the promises given to the peasants of Russia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152