Author Topic: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson  (Read 138855 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2006, 09:26:22 AM »
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["I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German ... My nieces knew no German at all."

And we know that they all took German lessons all the way up to the travel to Ekaterinburg.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2006, 08:22:46 PM »
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Indeed. I take the 'poor mama' comment to mean that it would  hurt her to learn that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter. How on earth could ANYONE think that if the real AN were alive MF and OA would reject her? This is beyond insulting to them.

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts, you would know that the Dowager Empress was fully aware of the unknown woman in Berlin.

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Chatnoir, most of what you posted appears to be unreliable. Where were these cards and notes, is there any proof they ever existed, did anyone else see them, and were they really from OA? I am skeptical. And all your 'she reportedly said...'  comments look like a bunch of he said she said third hand unvalididated hearsay.

In a letter from Olga to Herluf Zahle, October 31, 1925:

"How is she after our departure? I have sent her a postcard and shall write from time to time so that she may feel we are near her."

These cards were treasured by AA, and she always kept them with her.
If I use "reportedly", it just means I wasn't there and have to rely on witnesses who were.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ChatNoir »

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2006, 08:27:32 PM »
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And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.

Obviously you go with the wrong crowd. I took German for 4 years and speak it almost like a native.

From Anastasia's school books, we know that she made fewer mistakes in German than Russian. But AA never spoke German well, she spoke it rather poorly with a heavy Russian accent.

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ChatNoir

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2006, 11:11:26 PM »
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And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.

Obviously you go with the wrong crowd. I took German for 4 years and speak it almost like a native.

Not speaking it welll comes from lack of use. AN did not use her German. AA dd not know her English or Russian.

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From Anastasia's school books, we know that she made fewer mistakes in German than Russian.

This is because she was not as good at the cyrillic alphabet! Which reminds me, where is ANY proof AA was able to read or write in cyrillic?



 
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AA never spoke German well, she spoke it rather poorly with a heavy Russian accent.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

No she didn't speak it as well as her native Polish dialect, however, she spoke it much better than English, Russian or French, something the real AN would not have done.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #139 on: June 24, 2006, 12:20:08 AM »
Annie, I think you shoul re-read Peter Kurth again, you seem to have forgotten everything already.
AA spoke Russian like a native already at Dalldorf according to the nurses. (And don't try the worn-out argument any more that they could not distinguish between Russian and Polish!) She spoke more English than German in the early 20's according to Inspector Grünberg's nephew .
Already at Dalldorf, it was confirmed that she could READ Russian. She also taught the cyrillic alphabet to one of her "Ladies-in-waiting" in Unterlengenhardt, I think it was Miss Lammerdin.
And as far as spelling goes, I sometimes wonder if English is your first language. (It's my 4th.) ;)

Kind regards
ChatNoir

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #140 on: June 24, 2006, 09:10:43 AM »
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Annie, I think you shoul re-read Peter Kurth again, you seem to have forgotten everything already.
AA spoke Russian like a native already at Dalldorf according to the nurses. (And don't try the worn-out argument any more that they could not distinguish between Russian and Polish!) She spoke more English than German in the early 20's according to Inspector Grünberg's nephew .
Already at Dalldorf, it was confirmed that she could READ Russian. She also taught the cyrillic alphabet to one of her "Ladies-in-waiting" in Unterlengenhardt, I think it was Miss Lammerdin.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

...and others said none of this was so. Who do we believe?

Can you confirm what language the alleged notes from Olga were written in? Olga herself said AA seemed not to know or understand English or Russian. Is there any evidence to prove which language it was or even if the cards were authentic? What happened to them? Who, besides her avid fans, saw them?

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And as far as spelling goes, I sometimes wonder if English is your first language. (It's my 4th.) ;)

I consider this a personal attack. I have always been a good speller, except with foreign words or some names I might get wrong. You, sir, are very rude, and incorrect. Also, being an American, I seriously doubt English is your fourth language. Give us all a break.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2006, 10:26:24 AM »
Who on earth told you I was an American???

The original letters written in Russian and employing the formal mode of address were still in AA's possession during the 1960's. Photostats on file in EHF.  

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How ironic, since that seems to be exactly what "Chat Noir" is doing! I guess that's where he got the idea from! Even though the case is closed and most rational people accept the conclusion, whether or not it is what they wanted to hear, he continues to drag this dead horse around behind his car honking the horn. Since he has devoted so much of his life to proving AA was AN, he must feel reality somehow invalidates his life's work and his legacy that he turned out to be wrong and he can't deal with the humilation. Therefore he has to continue to pretend it's true, to try to make others believe in something that doesn't exist, and I really don't think he'd stop at anything to try to prove he was still right after all.

And you speak of personal attacks? But I forgive you, I do understand you mistook me for someone else. I'm still laughing when I read it. You and your horse really made my day.

Kind regards
ChatNoir


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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #142 on: June 24, 2006, 10:38:11 AM »
Chat Noir, you may not "be" an American, but you post from, and always have posted from, Los Angeles California.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2006, 10:45:54 AM »
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Chat Noir, you may not "be" an American, but you post from, and always have posted from, Los Angeles California.

Very true, but that does not automatically make me an American. As in this tangled web of grand duchesses and Polish factory workers: Everything is not necessarily what it seems to be at times.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ChatNoir »

Offline Rachael89

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #144 on: June 24, 2006, 12:26:28 PM »
Dear Annie

Why do you so readily thank one person for their help, yet scorn another? Chat Noir not only gave you many letters and quotes of Olga A's but both quotes that would support the AA claim and discredit it. Chat noir was only given you some of the material that you asked for, material relating to Olga A's opinion's on the AA claim.

The letters were in Peter Kurth's book (or at least one of the letters, I do not have the book to hand) and I find it hard to beleive that Mr Kurth is anything but reliable, and I personally do not beleive he would fabricate an entire letter! The letter is very loving and kind, and it speaks volumes as to how torn Olga was in her thinking, even though it may indicate her kindness towards a deranged stranger. When I find the book I will post the whole letter.

Regards

Rachael
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Rachael89 »
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Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #145 on: June 24, 2006, 02:49:13 PM »
I don't think he fabricated the letter, actually I was presuming one of her supporters did it. That's why I asked what language it was in, and I also wonder if anyone bothered to check the handwriting. Most of all I want to know if anyone but she and her most avid supporters actually saw this, or is it just hearsay? It seems so ironic to me that AA supporters always whine about stuff being backed up by sources, but even within their Bible, a lot of the 'evidence' seems to be mostly he said she said I think I thought I heard her say game of gossip passed down hearsay and rumors. Just because something is written down in a book and you can quote the page number does not make it a 'fact.' He did a good job of researching and collecting all this data(from one side, anyway) but do we really know how much of it was just bunk to begin with, and became even more distorted the more times the stories were told?

The reason I thanked Belochka is because she posted exactly what I was looking for.

And sorry I don't believe for one second 'Chat Noir' is not an American, or that English is his fourth language.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #146 on: June 24, 2006, 03:00:58 PM »
Oh, Ye of little faith.
But I thank you for this marvellous compliment to my proficiency in English.
As for the letters, you don't seem to question the one from Olga to Irene where she denounces AA completely. As Rachael89 said, I gave you both sides of the coin, and you preferred to se only one. And again, copies can be found in the Fallows archives.

Kind regards,
ChatNoir

Offline Rachael89

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2006, 03:13:43 PM »
Right, but surely it was nice of Chatnoir to go and dig out the sources/quotes etc. in the first place?

And to be honest, I dobut there was much more he could do than record what AA said, in a simalar way to Ian Vorres only recorded what Olga A said. Though of course he probably had access to archives, files etc. etc.

People are always going to question everything and anything for reliability etc. but you can only go so far to check information, and as for me myself all I have availiable to me is the books that I own, I can't really cross examine everything ;).

Peter Kurth's book is quite good in that it's written from a relativelly unbiased perspective, apart from him refeering to Anna Anderson as Anastasia all the time, which can get confusing. To me, it's far more valuable than JBL book that contains many fabrications and lies, either from the author or from AA in a forgetful old age.

Best

Rachael

P.S. It isn't very nice to say AA supporters always 'whine about stuff being backed up', and not incredibly vital to the discussion either
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Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2006, 06:13:31 PM »
Rachel, please stop taking offense to every remark I make. I usually put 'some' supporters, if not, please know that I don't know every single AA supporter in the world (though my son and daughter claim surely there are only about 5 left and they're all on here, no one else cares) but the remarks I make come from my own long personal experience with other posters here. If it wasn't you, it wasn't you. If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, it was a size 39. Btw fyi, I used to be a semi supporter and have come completely around to the other position, so I HAVE seen both sides of this, I have been researching this stuff since before you were born (my daughter is your age) so please don't think I just jumped in willy nilly and don't know what I'm talking about.

Offline Rachael89

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #149 on: June 25, 2006, 03:14:48 AM »
Hi Annie

To be honest, I didn't really take any offence, all I was trying to do was highlight how wording can give an unesscessary hostile air to what you write. This is not just you Annie, everyone does it, those on both sides of the AA/AN war.

And I know you know what you're talking about Annie ;), I wouldn't dream of saying anything different, it's obvious you research everything in great detail.

All the best

Rachael
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