People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson

[do not]

I do not feel "picked" on. Within the topic, anyone is free to post inferences about my actions, motivations or my character. I am still among the living.

I'm glad you don't, because no one is intending to. No one is questioning your motivations, actions or character, only those of your late father in law. Sorry about the loss of your wife, and no one thinks you, her or your children were involved in any charade.

You were very nice to support him when he was broke, in my family or many others such a person would have been considered a 'deadbeat loser/user' and would have been disowned. Since he wasn't of social security age until 1962, I am assuming you helped him before then, and perhaps after. I don't want you to think that your generous deed went to waste, because whether or not he was truly on the level about AA you were still kind to help a person down on his luck. I also understand how you want to defend his honor, and I don't think you will ever believe anything bad about him so really it's pointless to even ask. I just have a very hard time believing he was this selfless saint who gave his entire life's worth to helping AA, it does seem like somewhere along the line there was supposed to be something in it for him. If not, he was hurting his family and not being able to support them because of AA and that couldn't have been his intention.  I'm sure you must have addressed this in the post you lost last night, so I'll wait for your new reply.

On a personal note,  if you don't mind, could you please tell us what Marina's brothers think or thought of AA and her case? We never hear anything about them or their opinion. Are they supporters, did they not believe in her cause, or do they just want to remain anonymous?  I saw one interview on a show where your wife stated that Gleb never let his wife meet AA. Did the children meet her? What was his excuse for not having his family and AA associate? That sounds a little suspicious to me, did they ever think so? Also, what kind of contact,if any, did you and Marina have with AA and Manahan after Gleb's death?

[believed]

Maybe because they actually believed her?  Why is that so hard to accept?

Because she really, really wasn't AN, she didn't look like her and couldn't have had her memories. It seems like, if he knew her well enough to identify her, he'd have known it wasn't really her, even if it took time to be sure as it did for Olga and Gilliard. On the other hand, if he didn't know her well enough to identify her, how could he have known if it was really her, or if the memories were correct? I just can't get over the fact that his sister was close to AA for at least 2 years before they met. She could so easily have given her the info to fool Gleb, or maybe, just maybe, even have cued Gleb in on the charade? Those of us who are completely convinced the DNA tests are true have a hard time not wondering about this.

But despite what you and others say there HAD to be a resemblance, even if it doesn't show in many photographs.  Otherwise, Gilliard, Shura, Olga and others who later denied her would not have been unsure at the beginning.  We all know that Shura and Olga agonised over this and Shura had known AN since she was a baby - she even said at the beginning that AA had the same physical characteristics.   Olga said "if you think it is her, I will come" and she went!  That shows they were unsure even if they were convinced later she was not Anastasia.   if AA bore absolutely no resemblance, ill or not, she would have been dismissed out of hand by everyone.  And Annie, you simply cannot say that EVERYONE who recognised her was in on a  scam.

Also, why would anyone waste their time on a scam with someone who was incredibly ill - have you seen the photos of her after her TB crisis? - and actually expected to die?

But despite what you and others say there HAD to be a resemblance, even if it doesn't show in many photographs.  Otherwise, Gilliard, Shura, Olga and others who later denied her would not have been unsure at the beginning.  We all know that Shura and Olga agonised over this and Shura had known AN since she was a baby - she even said at the beginning that AA had the same physical characteristics.   Olga said "if you think it is her, I will come" and she went!  That shows they were unsure even if they were convinced later she was not Anastasia. 

When she was ill, emaciated even, it would have been hard to tell for sure. They considered that if she had survived a massacre and then became this sick, she may not look like herself. Take that mouth. AA's mouth was way bigger than AN's, but in a shrunken up, skinny face of a TB patient, they may have thought it only appeared bigger because of the weight loss. Same for all her features, which were all bigger than AN's. They gave it a chance, they wanted it to be her, but after more consideration they realized she was not AN. This is not the same thing as 'turning their back on your niece', she just realized it wasn't her! I tell the story over and over about the lady I know who lost her dog, and when I told her I thought I saw him (a big white Samoyed) on another street, she went right over there, declared him her dog, and took him home. He was dirty, and skittish. She attributed this to being lost and scared. But after she washed him and hung around him a couple days, she realized she had made a mistake, he wasn't her dog after all but one who, in his dirty and ragged condition, had only resembled him, and she had hoped it was him she gave it every chance. I honestly believe this is what happened with Olga and Gilliard.

if AA bore absolutely no resemblance, ill or not, she would have been dismissed out of hand by everyone.  And Annie, you simply cannot say that EVERYONE who recognised her was in on a  scam.

But honestly, who that REALLY KNEW Anastasia did 'recognize' her? I mean besides the Botkins, whose intentions we are discussing here. The ones who'd been closest to her rejected her, such as Olga, Gilliard, and Buxhoevedon. I know you come up with conspiracy theories as to why they didn't accept her, but in reality they didn't because it wasn't her, and the character assassination of these people at the hands of AA supporters trying to villainize them has been extreme. All the others had only seen her briefly, years ago, or not at all. Also most of the ones who 'accepted' her were people who never knew the real Anastasia, such as the society ladies of NYC. What would they know of her? They were told she was a princess, okay, they bought that. In many cases even the acceptance of the emigres' seemed based more on something that reminded them of 'Nicky' or their old lives in general than anything specific to ANASTASIA herself.  The family was very sheltered and reclusive, she wasn't known well by too many people, and being underage when the war came, she was never introduced to society. So who would know, really? AA was able to use this to her advantage.

Also, why would anyone waste their time on a scam with someone who was incredibly ill - have you seen the photos of her after her TB crisis? - and actually expected to die?

It was several years before the books and the court case. By then, there did seem to be a financial goal.

One thing you need to know, Ferrymans, is where I'm coming from. Look at my sig, I am completely convinced AA and FS were the same person. There is no doubt. The DNA tests are in, the last of the bones have been found. Therefore when I look at an aspect of AA's story, I can explain it away in some other way than her being AN, because she wasn't. We may not know totally for sure what happened and who was involved, but the fact remains, yes the fact, AA was not AN so there have to be explainations for everything.

Assuming it is put as question; yes, Anastasia's Will was lodged for "Probate" (as I have been given to understand the German process) with the Notary of Bad Liebenzell.

At her death, a "Certified Copy" was sent through the German Embassy to the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Charlottesville, VA.  That officer saw fit to forward it, without recordation or other appropriate action, to John Manahan, from whence it has vanished.  Those facts are of record in the court proceedings in Charlottesville.

During our attempts to secure access for the scientists to the tissue at the hospital, I was contacted by Freiherr Ulrich von Gienanth, Executor under that Will. He then began the tedious efforts to repeat the original process, this time to provide the copy through me. Had it reached us in time, I would have followed his instructions as her personal representative under Virginia law. By the time we got it, it had been necessary to take a different action to create a personal representative, which I did. Even so, the opponents (Nominally, The Russian Nobility Association) filed a suit against the hospital to enjoin it from granting that access authorized by the personal representative. They were dismissed.

I subsequently investigated the appropriate procedures for causing recordation of that Will in Charlottesville (place of death). That appeared to call for a translation (though perhaps not legally). In the time I had avaible then, I was not able to retain a court certified translator (I think there was only one). Since that time it has not been a priority, but I may get back to it in time. So I retain that copy for that purpose.

No, I will not post it here. It does not belong in this environment. Those seriously interested can go to Bad Liebenzell (as I understand some may have), or wait until it is filed in Charlottesville, where some enterprising "journalist" decides to parse it by exigesis, and with the usually efforts to "make a good story," regardless of the facts.

Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.

Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.

Yes, I've heard this quite frequently from AA supporters. I can't speak for others, but I do not and have never had the time and money or contacts to be able to go all over the world looking for things. I am actually proud of myself for what I have found using only libraries, the internet, and questioning people who know more than I do. Yes, it is only a hobby and interest for me, I am not writing a book or trying to sell anyone anything.

About her will, did she ever change it? It sounds like it's the same one she wrote in Germany. This must mean that Manahan is not mentioned in it, not that it mattered, since he was the one with the money and she had nothing to leave to anyone in the end.

[direct, specific]

Continuing with the suggestion and question of the FA:

As to the relationship topic of this thread, I will answer any direct, specific questions to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Since I still "have a life," I will answer as time is available and convenience permits.

If my own motivations are to be examined, that should be a separate thread, and the focus would have to be pretty exact to call for my response.

For those for whom these subjects are not a matter for learning, and dispassion,  but for diversion, you may as well "tune out."

Thank you Mr. Schweitzer.  May I remind posters that this thread is about the realationship between the Botkins and Anna Manahan and we are straying away from that.

Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.

Yes, I've heard this quite frequently from AA supporters. I can't speak for others, but I do not and have never had the time and money or contacts to be able to go all over the world looking for things. I am actually proud of myself for what I have found using only libraries, the internet, and questioning people who know more than I do. Yes, it is only a hobby and interest for me, I am not writing a book or trying to sell anyone anything.

About her will, did she ever change it? It sounds like it's the same one she wrote in Germany. This must mean that Manahan is not mentioned in it, not that it mattered, since he was the one with the money and she had nothing to leave to anyone in the end.

Annie: Your first sentence is completely inappropriate. Mr. Schweitzer is an attorney, and even if her were not, he still has every right to not post what he has available here. He has every right, as do you, to keep private anything he wishes to keep private. To dismiss his decision as something that applies "to all AA supporters" is to me somewhat disrespectful of that right to privacy. He said no, he meant no, and there is no earthly reason to disparage him and his decision, or to lump him into a neat little category with people who may or may not share his views.

We need to, as Rob has said, simply ask Mr. Schweitzer any questions we have simply and directly. He will answer what he chooses. That is what I meant about respecting one another, which has nothing at all to do with "picking on someone".

Just because I said that doesn't mean I'm pressuring him to answer it. I know he's not going to, and I'm not expecting him to.

Here is one direct question for Mr. Schweitzer, of course he doesn't have to answser it. It does deal with the topic, the family and AA.

On a personal note,  if you don't mind, could you please tell us what Marina's brothers think or thought of AA and her case? We never hear anything about them or their opinion. Are they supporters, did they not believe in her cause, or do they just want to remain anonymous?  I saw one interview on a show where your wife stated that Gleb never let his wife meet AA. Did the children meet her? What was his excuse for not having his family and AA associate? That sounds a little suspicious to me, did they ever think so? Also, what kind of contact,if any, did you and Marina have with AA and Manahan after Gleb's death?

Also, as FA said, there has been some sidetracking. Unfortunately, Ferrymansdaughter and I were getting back into another AA is or is not AN debate. There are already too many threads taken up by that topic already, and this one is not the place for it.

[why]

You know, I hope some psychiatristic interested in socialogy can get something out of theses Kinds of exchanges some day.

OK.

So far as I am aware Marina's brothers, Eugene (older)born in Japan, Peter born here, but injured in childhood, and Nikita the youngest did not choose to involve themselves in their father's work (writing) or affairs e.g. Anastasia. How they "felt" about it I do not know> Eugene, after serving as a Chief Quarter, and skipper of and skipper of infantry landing craft in numerous, if not practicaly all amphibious assualts in the pacific (as I understood his assigned theatre) spent the rest of his career as a Master in the Merchany Marine, and was at sea for the great period of his life. Peter from his injuries apparently had a very disordered life and could hardly care for himself, let alone be concerned for his parents or his father's involvements. Nikita chose to stand away from the Anastasia matter, and though still alive would not even provide a dried blood sample for use in the probable identification of his grandfather - leaving me to come up with the Half -sister genetic bloc proposal . I do not fault Nikita. He must have had his reasons, which he did not share with me. So far as I am aware, he did not contribute to the care of his parents in their destitution, though his father stayed with Nikita briefly at one point. Gleb devoted so much of his time to Anastasia during the childhood of his children that some resentment of that may have existed. But, that would be total conjecture. Nikita provided extensive care and consideration for his half sister in the last part of his life. He was not without considerable compassion. I never knew Eugene, and met Peter only once when he needed help. It was the two girls who sustained the family. They were fantastic, and it was that which drew me to Marina after we met. her commitment to them.

Now, what else, and why do you want to know? Please state the why for all questions.

I really should answer the FA's question first, but my button has been pushed.

Reference to a perception of some TV show is really not  a good place to begin a question. I don't believe there was a case where Gleb would not let Nadjerda (Nadine) do anything. That was certainly never the relationship I observed.

On point with the thread, Anastasia did not want to meet Gleb's "Japanese wife." Nadjerda was of course not Japanese, she was the daughter of Konshin, who had been the President of the Russian State bank, and whose signature will be seen on the Russian currency of that time. It was simply that Anastasia had been told that Gleb had married in Japan, which was true. Of course some here will want to imply "he married her for her money." But, if you ever see her pictures, you will know otherwise, as Bokhanov, the Russian historian noted many years later.

My contacts with Anastasia and Jack Manahan belong in another thread already begun by "belochka." they have nothing to do with this thread.

Let me now get the the last FA question;

"Mr. Schweitzer, to the best of your personal knowledge, prior to the signing over of financial interest, as you have stated, at any time prior did Gleb have any actual financial interest in Anna Manahan, her story or claims or did he hope to gain financially at any time from his support of her claim to be ANR."

Your question refers to a specific period of time, which was before I knew Gleb or anything of the matter. My understanding from the Executor, and from Marina is that the Will was dictated when Anastasia was advised she was dying from TB in Germany. I do not know the year, and do not have reference to her Will here. But that period must have been after she was sprited back to  Germany following her viist here, at the invitation of Princess Xenia (Mrs. William Leeds). So, the question would apply to the time from Gleb's trip to identify the "unknown" until the execution of the Will. I do know that Marina told me her father acted as soon as he heard that he and Tatiana had been named in that Will, and the date will show on the actual renunciation.

He did not "sign over" any financial interest. He had none and had never sought any and did not want any to accrue to him or his heirs. Gleb had no authority over her person or assets (if any), and never sought any. He held no power of attorney (though others, unrelated to him in any way, have). As to "her story," or claims he had no financial interest in them in the commercial sense. It is well known he wrote articles, not many as I recall , about her, and included the references to his meetings with her in The Real Romanovs, a memoire relied upon by Barbara Tuchman and Bob Massie, among others, but not "about" Anastasia." He wrote The Woman Who Rose Again, after Anastasia was taken back to Germany. While he may have sought compensatio for his writing, as he did for his published novels, I do not think there is any basis for thinking it was compenstaion for his "support," on the contrary, his writing might have been further support to preserve the facts of the events of those days.

So, while I did not know him then or observe the events in that part of his life, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the answer to your question is no, on all counts. I am aware of other opportunities for earning what would have been significant fees for writing a series of pieces, that he relinquished for a commitment that others would arrange for Anastasia to meet with her grandmother, and other similar opportunities he thwarted that arose after the date of the renunciation.

I will try to find out as much as I can about the number of articles he may have written, but the compensation was not his motive. If he had been money oriented, his life would have been much different.

And next for a question about Grandanor?

Now, what else, and why do you want to know? Please state the why for all questions.

Just for my own curiosity, since I had never heard anything about his sons or their position. I thank you for the info on them, I realize it's  not any of my 'business' and I appreciate your honesty. I had wondered if maybe some of the family resented the time spent on AA, and his destitution that came of it. I can tell you that would have been the case among my greedy relatives!

You mentioned 'the two girls'. I didn't know Marina had a sister, did she? Or do you mean the half sister, she wasn't Gleb's, right?

the Will was dictated when Anastasia was advised she was dying from TB in Germany. I do not know the year, and do not have reference to her Will here.

Oh, so it's that old? She never made another one? Just wondering.

While he may have sought compensatio for his writing, as he did for his published novels, I do not think there is any basis for thinking it was compenstaion for his "support," on the contrary, his writing might have been further support to preserve the facts of the events of those days.

I'm sure he did gain something financially from them, as people don't usually go around writing books for free. Their publishers wouldn't like that, either. But since AA was the subject matter, it was an issue.

So, while I did not know him then or observe the events in that part of his life, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the answer to your question is no, on all counts.

So that is to say, as far as you know? Okay, fair enough. You didn't know him at the time, so you don't know for sure. Right?

I am aware of other opportunities for earning what would have been significant fees for writing a series of pieces, that he relinquished for a commitment that others would arrange for Anastasia to meet with her grandmother

Does this mean it was some kind of trade off for AA to meet the Dowager Empress and try to convince her? Do you know anything about Baron Von Kliest being promised fifty thousand crowns by someone if he (Von Kliest) could get Marie F. to accept AA?

I will try to find out as much as I can about the number of articles he may have written, but the compensation was not his motive. If he had been money oriented, his life would have been much different.

I understand, but isn't it fair to wonder that maybe it originally had been a goal that fell through? Surely he would not have chosen a life of financial ruin for himself and his family. I know that such mistakes can happen that indirectly negatively affect your life and means, I've seen it myself in real life. I guess what I'm trying to say, as kindly as I can, maybe he had 'high hopes' for her, and possibly for himself, that something successful would come of it, but it didn't?


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time? I understand if you don't know the answer to this, and I believe you do believe he did, or you and your wife wouldn't have been sure enough to have the testing done. One more personal question, and of course you are completely free to deny or ignore it, has there ever been a time when you personally felt that maybe he had been taken for a ride, and that maybe it had hurt the entire family? Please forgive this one if it goes too far.

I do appreciate your time and honesty in coming forth with this info for us. Thank you.

And next for a question about Grandanor?

If you have time, please! And please know that no matter what, none of this was your fault, and no one blames you or thinks anything bad of you because of it.

The only specific question I could parse from #154 on point with this thread was:


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time?


My answer is that it was not a question of "belief" on his part. He knew she was Anastasia, just as many would know someone, not just recognize them, or be convinced by some factors.