Author Topic: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson  (Read 138899 times)

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Offline ISteinke

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2004, 02:55:39 PM »
Wow! It seems that this particular thread is becoming very volatile! Annie seems to be very set in her ways, and some people appear to be quite upset.

I think that I can understand where Annie is coming from. She isn't trying to be contentious, but merely operating from the standpoint of a philosophical understanding of knowdledge that is not longer held in many quarters- namely rationalism and empiricism. Only a short number of years ago her viewpoint would have been seen as overwhelmingly correct. Now, however, we have to ask some questions. Allow me to explain.

In graduate level education, at this time in history, one of the hots topics has to do with "modernism" and "post-modernism."  Modernism was a viewpoint that insisted two things


1. It is possible to arrive at certainty, as far as truth is concerned.

2. This certainty has to be arrived at through scientific/empirical evidence and proofs. In other words, if something cannot be perfectly explained through scientific methods, then it is not true.

    The fallacy of modernism was this. Noone, NOONE is able to arrive at "truth," [in any discipline] entirely through scientific rationalism. There has to be an element of faith and belief and probability. [When I refer to faith and belief I'm not speaking of religion. I'm speaking of a wider principle in knowing and relating]. Modernism was eventually discredited when it was seen that this philosophy led, ultimately, to skepticism about everything.
 
    Now, in the post-modern world, we are much more apt to listen to the stories of people's lives, and to accept that it is okay for us to "not understand" some things.

    Annie seems to be operating, philosophically, from a modernist standpoint. To a good, rational, empirical modernist any other evidence besides DNA would be "stupid," or as Annie puts it, "crap."

     I think we need to be understanding of the Annies of the world. Some people are still steeped in a dry, rationalistic understanding of life, and until they catch up with the post-modern age, we simply have to bear with them.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2004, 04:03:18 PM »
Quote

Dear Bear,

No, no evidence that we have seen -- from various doctors and institutions, from her mother, from her sister and brother -- says that she had any scars at all.  The family testimony falls under the "are there any distinguishing features" sort of question that relatives of missing persons are often asked.  The medical testimony comes mostly from admissions/initial examination paperwork.  Franziska Schanzkowska was a person who was documented quite well right up to within a week or two of her disappearance.  It is always possible that she had some sort of accident in that last week or two, but any resultant scarring would have been fresh and perhaps unhealed -- and could not have matched the scarring on Fraulein Unbekannt's body, which was "old" scarring.

There was rather an extensive Berlin Police investigation into FS's disappearance, at the end of which it was concluded that she had been a victim of Georg Grossman.  This investigation included much more evidence than Grossman's own diary -- often cited -- where a name similar to Schanzkowsky is recorded (from memory, I think it was rendered something like this: Czenkowski).  Before you ask, it is true that the Berlin Police Department's records were mostly destroyed in the second war, but certified copies of records were routinely sent to other interested entities, like private investigators, etc, and this is where we located Franziska's information.

I believe it most likely that poor Franziska was killed by Grossman.  In any case, I deeply, deeply doubt that she was connected to Fraulein Unbekannt in any way.  The evidence reads that FS was resurrected as a convenient decoy some time after her family had come to grips with her murder.  Her mother was very upset at this, never believed that Fraulein Unbekannt was Franziska, and resented her tragedy being used in this manner.  As she --and others -- have pointed out, Franziska was hardly unknown in the Berlin mental health community.

I'll see what I can dig up this afternoon on some of the other issues raised here...



I hope this thread can get back to some very interesting old/new data which doesn't seem to have been ackownledged accept by King, Wilson, Annie and me.  

Did anyone else notice that Wilson is telling us that Franziska S.  may have been murdered by Grossmann before 13 Aug 1920?

Did anyone else notice when Franziska S. disapearance had occured her family had said to the police that Franziska S. had no scaring that would be of any use for idenitification if her body was found?

Did anyone else notice that when the explosion occured in the factory, that Franziska had not been injured?

Why important?  Anna Anderson had old scars when she was in the asylum.

If we just take this evidence then Anna Anderson couldn't have been Franziska S.

So,  how could the  intestines used for the DNA be  Franziska's if she had died before 13 Aug 1920?

Hello.  Anyone out there?  

With this evidence,  it might make you wonder who was Anna Anderson if she wasn't Franziska S.  or  GD Anastasia?  Oh, dear.  Does this mean Anna Anderson might have been GD Anastasia and we can't prove one way or the other because we don't have anything which we can use to establish Anna Anderson's DNA?

Annie,  it does appear we are about to  chase our tails.....  and around and around we're going to go, again....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2004, 08:59:25 AM »
Quote
Wow! It seems that this particular thread is becoming very volatile! Annie seems to be very set in her ways, and some people appear to be quite upset.

I think that I can understand where Annie is coming from. She isn't trying to be contentious, but merely operating from the standpoint of a philosophical understanding of knowdledge that is not longer held in many quarters- namely rationalism and empiricism. Only a short number of years ago her viewpoint would have been seen as overwhelmingly correct. Now, however, we have to ask some questions. Allow me to explain.

In graduate level education, at this time in history, one of the hots topics has to do with "modernism" and "post-modernism." Modernism was a viewpoint that insisted two things


1. It is possible to arrive at certainty, as far as truth is concerned.

2. This certainty has to be arrived at through scientific/empirical evidence and proofs. In other words, if something cannot be perfectly explained through scientific methods, then it is not true.

  The fallacy of modernism was this. Noone, NOONE is able to arrive at "truth," [in any discipline] entirely through scientific rationalism. There has to be an element of faith and belief and probability. [When I refer to faith and belief I'm not speaking of religion. I'm speaking of a wider principle in knowing and relating]. Modernism was eventually discredited when it was seen that this philosophy led, ultimately, to skepticism about everything.
 
  Now, in the post-modern world, we are much more apt to listen to the stories of people's lives, and to accept that it is okay for us to "not understand" some things.

  Annie seems to be operating, philosophically, from a modernist standpoint. To a good, rational, empirical modernist any other evidence besides DNA would be "stupid," or as Annie puts it, "crap."

  I think we need to be understanding of the Annies of the world. Some people are still steeped in a dry, rationalistic understanding of life, and until they catch up with the post-modern age, we simply have to bear with them.



Actually, I am not much of a scientist at all. I am very mystical, spiritual, I believe in ghosts, the afterlife, mysteries, other dimensons, UFO's, all kinds of weird stuff. But the AA thing is just such a dead horse already! It had been drug through court for 4 decades, and had numerous books written about it. I cannot believe there is anything else left to hold this up, not even the very loose theory that FS was murdered (strange this never came out in all those years of litigation!) And yes, I would say a DNA test that proves that AA was not related to Alexandra's family and was likely related to FS's family is a big thing there.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2004, 10:02:35 AM »
AND

If I just might point out, and can do since Im guilty as well, THIS thread is about Anna claiming Felix tried to kill her and NOT about whether AA was AN or FS....so, lets stick to topic  and take the other discussion over to the Anna Anderson thread.
Thanks
FA

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2004, 11:26:26 AM »
Okay sorry, but I do have one more thing to add on the Yussoupov trying to kill AA theory. In most reports, AA seemed shocked and scared at the mention of the name Felix when told he was coming to see her, then when she found out it was FY she sighed "Felix -YUSSOUPOV, how nice, is Irina with him?" Could it be the initial fear of the name Felix was because for a second she thought that it was FS's brother Felix come to expose her?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2004, 10:52:03 AM »
I mentioned this in another thread but it's more appropriate here. This is something else that hasn't been discussed that maybe needs to be as part of the story of Anastasia and the pretenders.


I have been thinking, on the topic of Sigusmund claiming to recognize her, as well as the Georgevna sisters Nina and Xenia: how many of us could pick out of the crowd a cousin we only saw a couple times a year as children, once they were grown up? Think about that! At a recent family gathering, I did not recognize a cousin I had been kind of close to as a child and young teen until she spoke to me first. If you had put her in a lineup with 4 other similar looking women I'm not sure I'd have chosen the right one. Due to the war and revolution, the family was not visited as much and Anastasia not seen so much during the last years, which were the years of her adolescence and changing in appearance. So of course people might be confused. This is yet another reason for me to doubt AA.

Thoughts? Think about your own lives, your own family holiday dinners, your cousins. Would you have recognized them if you only saw them 2 or 3 times a year and hadn't seen them at all from say, age 12 until they were grown to adulthood? Wouldn't there be some question if asked to recognize and identify them?

I really think those who had been closest to her, and those with the best memories were the ones who rejected her outright. Others who were confused were maybe feeling bad and wanting to make totally sure before they rejected her, just in case. A lot of the family and friends who saw AA may not have been close to the youngest daughter and just saw her in passing and never paid much attention to her, and the cousins who knew her as a child may not have seen her in years. For example, the Georgevna sisters were often living abroad, Sigismund did not visit frequently, I'm not sure they saw each other after 1909 or at least 1912. As I mentioned before, socializing was cut down after 1914, and this was the time Anastasia started to change and grow up. So it's something else to think about.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline ISteinke

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2004, 03:03:11 PM »
Annie-
    You said in your post that the ones who knew her best rejected her outright. I have to say that in this you are completely mistaken, from an objective historical standpoint.
    Grand Duke Andrew, alone of the Vladmirovichi, was a personal friend of Nicholas II, and on good terms with the Tsar. Further, Andrew was an aide-de-camp to Nicholas. He saw Anastasia EVERY DAY during the war. I believe the last time Olga saw her was for less than an hour in 1916. Prior to that they had not been together since 1913. Andrew Vladmirovich knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did.
    Further, Lili Dehn knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did. Lili saw her at the palace EVERY DAY, and even lived in the palace for a time after the revolution. Lili accepted her as authentic without question.

    Zinaida Tolstoy accepted her without question. For heaven's sake, the woman [AA] began to cry when Zinaida began to play the piano. Why? Because she was playing a song that noone had ever heard except the four grand duchesses and their immediate family. Only Anastasia could have known to cry over that particular song.

    Shura Gilliard [nee Alexandra Tegleva] accepted her without question, with the words, "These are Anastasia's feet." Even though her husband behaved perfectly beastly in the matter Shura never recanted, EVER. Having been Anastasia's nursemaid from birth she knew her better than ANYONE, and she accepted her.

    No, Annie, you need to get your facts straight. The people who knew Anastasia best accepted AA as being authentic.

Offline BaronessSophie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2004, 07:12:12 PM »
Hmm I don't think Andre was closer to Anastasia than Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, her aunt Olga, or Baroness Buxoevedon. Gilliard rejected her and Anna Vyrubova was never consulted.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2004, 07:48:54 PM »
Quote
I have been thinking, on the topic of Sigusmund claiming to recognize her, as well as the Georgevna sisters Nina and Xenia:



Actually I do believe that Nina did NOT recognize her as her cousin.  However, Nina did say : "Whoever she is, she is no Polish peasant.  She is a lady of good society and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian.

But you've posed a very interesting question.  I think it would be rather hard to recognise a cousin I had only seen off and on...... but I can't really say that for sure - as I've never been put in that situation.  There would certainly be a lot of questions in my mind if I was called to recognize and identify them.  

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2004, 08:05:02 AM »
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Annie-
  You said in your post that the ones who knew her best rejected her outright. I have to say that in this you are completely mistaken, from an objective historical standpoint.
  Grand Duke Andrew, alone of the Vladmirovichi, was a personal friend of Nicholas II, and on good terms with the Tsar. Further, Andrew was an aide-de-camp to Nicholas. He saw Anastasia EVERY DAY during the war. I believe the last time Olga saw her was for less than an hour in 1916. Prior to that they had not been together since 1913. Andrew Vladmirovich knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did.
  Further, Lili Dehn knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did. Lili saw her at the palace EVERY DAY, and even lived in the palace for a time after the revolution. Lili accepted her as authentic without question.

  Zinaida Tolstoy accepted her without question. For heaven's sake, the woman [AA] began to cry when Zinaida began to play the piano. Why? Because she was playing a song that noone had ever heard except the four grand duchesses and their immediate family. Only Anastasia could have known to cry over that particular song.

  Shura Gilliard [nee Alexandra Tegleva] accepted her without question, with the words, "These are Anastasia's feet." Even though her husband behaved perfectly beastly in the matter Shura never recanted, EVER. Having been Anastasia's nursemaid from birth she knew her better than ANYONE, and she accepted her.

  No, Annie, you need to get your facts straight. The people who knew Anastasia best accepted AA as being authentic.



No, I have my facts straight and I've heard all that, but there are even more convincing stories on the other side. I think anyone who mistook her was either hoping very hard or, as I described about the cousins after many years, mistaken. I find it hard to believe Andrew Vladmirovich was that close to the Tsar when the rest of his family was vermon to them, he was also living with Mathilde K. whom he stole from Sergei M., and even if he was there, I don't think the Tsar's young daughters would have been much interest to him on his visit.

And while you're speaking of getting your facts straight, check out the DNA test ;)

Offline ISteinke

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2004, 05:24:07 PM »
Ok, Annie-
    I'm going to put the question much more bluntly.
    Lili Dehn knew Anastasia personally, better than nearly anyone else.
    Lili Dehn unreservedly recognized AA as being the authentic Anastasia.

    If Lili Dehn were to rise from the dead, and log in to this forum today, affirming that AA was indeed the daughter of her friend Alexandra, would you, in fact, tell Lili, "No, you are mistaken. This is not Anastasia. I know better than you?"

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2004, 05:36:23 PM »
I think Olga, Ernie, Sophie Buxhoevedon and Pierre Gillard knew her better. Perhaps she was mistaken, or only wishful thinking. Anyway I would never accept or deny a person's claim on any one person's word.

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2004, 05:58:24 PM »
I'd heard that regarding Lili Dehn that Anna Anderson had actually identified things wrong and she just knocked it off to her having been so traumatized, etc, but she got important things like "Oh, yes, this was Mama's bedroom," blah blah when N&A shared a bedroom... I dunno. Something like this.  I don't remember where I read it!

Offline ISteinke

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2004, 10:32:40 PM »
Annie-
    Pierre Gilliard and Sophie Buxhoeveden did know Anastasia very well. I would even give grant that they knew her as well as Lili Dehn. However, I don't think it is tenable to say that Olga knew Anastasia as well as any of them. I have never read anything to the effect that Olga was a regular visitor to the Alexander Palace. As I understand it [correct me if I am wrong] for a long while, while the children [OTMAA] were growing up Olga lived in Kiev. As I have interpreted it [through the books I have read] though a close BLOOD RELATIVE Olga was not part of the inner circle. The immediate "family" [daily persona in the palace] consisted of Nicholas, Alexandra, the children, Anna Vyrubova, and Lili Dehn.

      Concerning Pierre Gilliard- He was a regular in the palace, but as a tutor he was an employee, a servant of sorts- a high-placed servant, but still a servant. He would not have been considered a personal friend, with the same relaxed familiarity as Lili had with the family.

     I have serious questions concerning Baroness Buxhoeveden and her rejection of AA. According to the literature that I have read AA accused BB of treacherously betraying the family in Siberia. As far as I know there was never any desire [on AA's part] to be recognized by Sophie. From the moment the Anastasia controversy began she [AA] detested her [Sophie]. If Sophie truly did behave herself, in Siberia, in a despicable way, there was good reason for her to issue a verdict of "not Anastasia." It covered her butt, so to speak.

    As far as Ernie is concerned. Of course Ernie did not know Anastasia as well as did Lili Dehn. Grand Duke Ernest lived way off in Darmstadt, hundreds of miles away. During the time the children were growing up he was busy governing a country. He could not have seen the children any more than once a year. Lili saw them every day.

    Just because someone is a blood relative, even a close one, does not mean as a matter of course that they necessarily are close to the person in question.

    Case in point- In my own personal life if my mother's best friend or my father's brother were asked to identify me, my mother's best friend would be a far more reliable witness. She has known me since I was born, whereas my father's brother has never, EVER had a daily participation in my life. The same would hold true for Anastasia.

    Now, as far as Pierre Gilliard is concerned- Whether one is pro-AA or anti-AA, it cannot be denied that he [Gilliard] behaved himself, during the Anastasia trials, in a perfectly beastly and unscholarly manner. Whether AA was Anastasia or not, Gilliard was in the pay of the Grand Duke of Hesse, and later on attempting to save his own reputation. He really did not care whether she was Anastasia or not, but was perfectly willing to sacrifice her, either way, for his own selfish ends. His behaviour, the last time he testified [before his death] proves this. At that time it was revealed that he lied, supressed evidence, and destroyed pertinent documents. Whether AA was Anastasia or not Pierre Gilliard's testimony of rejection is invalidated by the fact that he was a despicably petty and self-serving man.

    I reiterate- I am not saying that AA was Anastasia. I am saying that either way, Pierre Gilliard's behaviour neutralized his value as a witness.

    Another comment that you made- the comment that you would not accept or deny someone based on one person's testimony. I believe that you are using a double standard. You use the denial of Grand Duchess Olga to say that AA was not Anastasia, when Olga was the only close blood relative who ever agreed to meet her. That is the testimony of one person. However, you reject the testimony of Lili Dehn, on the grounds that she is "just one person."

    Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you, or anybody else thinks that Lili was mistaken. What ultimately matters is that Anna Anderson was accepted as an intimate friend from long ago by Lili, and that the two "found one another" again. The fact that Lili believed her to be Anastasia ultimately means more than your questioning of the reliability of Lili.

Offline Annie

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Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2004, 06:03:50 AM »
Quote

I just want to jump in and briefly say this: Olga knew Anastasia VERY well. She was close to all of N&A's children. She was living close by as they were growing up, and Olga often took the girls out to little parties so they could get away from their somewhat sheltered life at the Alexander Palace. Read the book The Last Grand Duchess and you will see that she was very close to Anastasia, and she was perhaps the best person still alive to consult concerning the woman claiming to be Anastasia.


Yes, she did! Especially when they were older, right before the war. She loved to take her nieces shopping and to get ice cream. I've read that several times.