Author Topic: Willing?  (Read 13331 times)

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Offline umigon

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2005, 06:26:17 AM »

I am flattered! I still don't know what a Tizer is, but when I do I will get one for you! Along with the mac!



Going back to topic, I also think Mary married Bothwell willingly and that he gave her her last happy times after and before so much trouble and the sad events she had and would  suffer!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by umigon »
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2005, 06:46:41 AM »
Umigon I agree. I think "love" is a much more likely diagnosis than "porphyria". It makes people act very out of character.

I mentioned on the Queen consorts thread about the other Hepburns who had been involved with her predecessors. I've often wondered whether Mary was aware of this and felt like "the script had already been written" for her.

And it must have been a nice change having a grown-up lover!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2005, 07:12:00 AM »
It's true that Mary's experiences with Darnley were awful - and Bothwell was about as different as Darnley as it was possible to be: Darnley was delicatley pretty, Bothwell was gruffly handsome; Darnley had a refined, sophisticated veneer, whereas Bothwell was a rough and tumble Highlander - all things considered, Mary's attraction to him is quite understandable.
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2005, 07:20:12 AM »
He wasn't a highlander - he was a Glaswegian!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline umigon

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2005, 07:21:15 AM »


And on top of all, Darnley was a bad husband who mistreated her and even killed her friends (Rizzio). Lets remember it! I think no one would have doubted in Mary's place. Still, I think it was a bad step, at least when her kingdom was so troubled. What I don't understand is why didn't she keep him just as a lover? Because of her Catholic faith? I doubted, as her marriage to Darnley had been almost illegal, without waiting for papal dispensation!
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2005, 07:22:46 AM »
Possibly her Catholic sensibilities. Also, she might have feared that by keeping Bothwell as a love she was giving the likes of John Knox a stick to beat her with. Remember, in those days, Kings were permitted to have lovers - queens were not.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2005, 07:23:44 AM »
Quote
He wasn't a highlander - he was a Glaswegian!


My mistake.  :-/ But didn't he spend a lot of time in the Highlands fighting rebelling clans? Or did he do that near the English border? ??? Either way, he was a Scot, who were all seen as 'rough and tumble' then, compared to Darnley - and Englishman.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2005, 07:30:23 AM »
Well I think anyone, would be "rough and tumble" compared to Darnley and Francis (or Rizzio for that matter).

I've never heard of Bothwell going anywhere near the Highlands. I'll have to look it up.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2005, 07:36:22 AM »
Perhaps it is the English border that was his haunt. I am probably confused as usual.  ???
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline umigon

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2005, 07:37:38 AM »

I think I can remember reading somewhere that he indeed faught in the Highlands. But I can't recall where I read it nor where or what did he fight for!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by umigon »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2005, 07:44:00 AM »
 ??? Let's hope Bell has the answer. . . .  :)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2005, 07:46:59 AM »
Mary:



Darnley - not actually very handsome, IMHO, but each to their own:

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2005, 08:10:15 AM »
And here's Bothwell:

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2005, 10:09:25 AM »
Back to Mary's marriage with Bothwell. It was a protestant service, so I don't think Mary's catholic scruples came in here. She may well have already known that she was pregnant! They were married on 15th May 1567 and she miscarried of twins in July at Loch Leven.

I think Prince Lieven is right, Bothwell was Lord Warden of the Marches, and in charge of keeping law and order in the Borders.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Willing?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2005, 10:12:02 AM »
Yes, it is possible she was already pregnant when they married - she had her mother's volatile French blood!  ;D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."