Author Topic: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem  (Read 76245 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2005, 09:59:57 AM »
No it's not true that the possibility that FS and Gertrude might not have had the same mothers didn't just appear.  Evidently, it was mentioned in some book, I think it was Kurth's, that Felix and FS's family was more liberal in thinking than Gertrude's mother's family which was part of FS's father's other marriage which seem to have indicated that there were two different mothers.  Then somewhere along the line, Penny mentioned she was looking into this statement.  She wasn't and as far as I know hasn't declared that Gertrude and FS did have different mothers, because, at this time Gertrude's birth record can't be found.  So, some of us has made a decision to "sit on the fense" until we've learned for sure if Gertrude and FS did or did not have the same mother.

Logic is always good.  Since the DNA seems to show that triangle that if Gertrude is related [sister to 10th or 25th cousin] FS and AA has the same mthDNA as Gertrude's grandson Karl Maucher, that it all fits, that FS and AA are the same person.

Nice neat little package.

Penny started a link for us to speculate who AA might be if she wasn't FS.  So,  we've run through various data about AA and FS which ranged from ears, shoe size, height and did AA speak Russian.  The more the differences were discussed the more of us have just stepped back and made the decision just to wait and see.

I'm not sure why our "just wait and see" is so hard for some to accept.  But accept it or not,  that is what some of us are doing.
Of course, this doesn't mean we're anti-DNA or have some kind of agenda or think green little men walk about the dark side of the moon.

For newbies,  it appears there is a huge canyon between those who believe AA is FS and the "let's wait and see group".  There really isn't.  

If FS and Gertrude have the same mothers than that is okay with most of us.  But if they did not have the same mothers then we have to step back and return to the mtDNA which we assume was done correctly.  And, since it probably is correct than understand how Gertrude ends up being related to AA and how were their mother's related.  And, that is why we'd have to discover the common ancestor for both Gertrude and AA.

Would FS be out of the picture.....  No, not  necessarily.  But we don't have FS's DNA so the task might prove to be impossible to discover any kind of relationship.

So, as you can see, the problem only occurs if FS and Gertrude had different mothers.

To this point in time, we do not know if they did have or didn't have the same mothers.

Since my other other hobby is genealogy, I know how easy it is for descendants to not know about who belongs to whom when an ancestors was married two, three sometimes six times,  or parents of a child dies and the uncle or an aunt takes them into their family as their own or when a child is born out of wedlock and is absorbed within a family....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2005, 10:06:48 AM »
Quote
This is the udated version of Chart Two.
 
CHART TWO:  
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek
 Issue:  [unknown]
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]  
     Issue:  
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896
     *  Gertrude b. poss. 1898
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901
    6.  Felix b. 17 February 1903
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905
 
 ---
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___  
 Issue:  
   1. [unknown]  
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.


Quote
...[in part]...
From what I could find so far,  Franzisca had , at least 5 siblings: Maria-Juliana, gertrud, Walter, Felix,
Valerian. (One more than previously documented I think).

Gertrud's children were:

1. Another Gertrud m. Maucher
     Carl Maucher's mother.

2, Hedwig Lander
    

3. Margarete
     Who lived with Carl Maucher
 
4. Magdalene m. Weber
     Had a son called Herbert Weber

Hope this all helps
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2005, 10:07:07 AM »
No it wasn't Kurth's book, neither Kurth or Lovell mention that in their books. It was a more obscure book whose author's name I can't think of, but I never heard of it before I came here.

Now for the 'let's wait and see' thing- as I said in the 'truth what will it take' thread, what are you waiting for?? Is there anything that will ever convince you, or do you just think it's fun to drag it out? If nothing has convinced you so far, I doubt anything ever will, and if there is something specific that will, please do explain what it would take. I never got that answer in the other thread.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2005, 10:22:01 AM »

Does anyone remember the correct source since Annie doesn't think it was Kurth?

Annie has already started a thread about what will it take for some of us on the fense to accept the truth...

We're waiting for the truth which in this case is birth records of Gertrude.

Sometimes you can't rush research even if the wait is annoying
;D as I am when I continue to repeat the reason some of us are dong the "wait and see" act.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2005, 12:54:18 PM »
Suppose there ARE no birth records, or that they've been destroyed so we'll never know.

Suppose they DO appear, and they show she and FS were whole sisters. That still won't prove anything to you, because you still think FS may not have been AA, so what does it matter?

If you are waiting for something that does not exist, or cannot be found out, this will never end. There is a good chance there will be NO new evidence, and we have to go with what we have (which is more than enough for me, who used to believe in AA) Besides, no matter what surfaces, some people will always find a way to discount it, so in a way, this is a bottomless pit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

jeremygaleaz

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2005, 01:06:02 PM »
Quote
Does anyone remember the correct source since Annie doesn't think it was Kurth?

Annie has already started a thread about what will it take for some of us on the fense to accept the truth...

We're waiting for the truth which in this case is birth records of Gertrude.

Sometimes you can't rush research even if the wait is annoying
 ;D as I am when I continue to repeat the reason some of us are dong the "wait and see" act.

AGRBear


Here you go:

from THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA

"Her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix.  The first family were very religious and straitlaced, while Franziska and Felix were more open-minded."  

This goes back to my original points  :

Where does this spell out specifically   that Franziska and Felix were the only children of the second marriage? It only statest that they were the products of their father's second marriage

And how can anyone draw the conculsion that Gertrude herself was a half sister from this statement? Where is her name mentioned?

It's only seems to be implying that there were older half siblings, and thus far, no evidence for their existence has come up.

And all of this was news to the Schankowsky family, and was never brought up at the original DNA tests, not that it mattered anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline lexi4

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2005, 01:19:22 PM »
Thank you Helen.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2005, 01:37:56 PM »
What those words [and thanks for finding them, again] caused was a reaction in Penny who is a person who likes to know the facts.  So, to know more about the family and who was born from the various wives of Anton S., she's gone  into the records.

Is there a problem in trying to discover if Gertrude was the daughter of the same mother as FS?

Sometimes research takes a person into a different direction than what historians have written.

This doesn't mean the earlier historians were lying or fabricating evidence.  What it means is the historians were working with the evidence that they had.

In modern times we have DNA.

In each new generation, it appears there is a new way of discovering evidence which then causes historians to rewrite history.  Something will come after DNA, I'm sure, which will help us discover new evidence.

This is the way it is.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2005, 01:43:16 PM »
Quote
What those words [and thanks for finding them, again] caused was a reaction in Penny who is a person who likes to know the facts.  So, to know more about the family and who was born from the various wives of Anton S., she's gone  into the records.

Is there a problem in trying to discover if Gertrude was the daughter of the same mother as FS?

Sometimes research takes a person into a different direction than what historians have written.

This doesn't mean the earlier historians were lying or fabricating evidence.  What it means is the historians were working with the evidence that they had.

In modern times we have DNA.

In each new generation, it appears there is a new way of discovering evidence which then causes historians to rewrite history.  Something will come after DNA, I'm sure, which will help us discover new evidence.

This is the way it is.

AGRBear


What this really means is grasping at straws trying to find a reason, any reason to show that AA may not have been FS, while conveniently ignoring other more compelling evidence  ;).  Oh well  ::)

jeremygaleaz

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2005, 01:56:44 PM »
Quote
Is there a problem in trying to discover if Gertrude was the daughter of the same mother as FS?



Let's not get silly and defensive here.

Like I said before , it's a free country. Research what you want. However, the point seems to be missed that the half sister issue is pretty meaningless, as mtDNA tests do not produce "false positives" or "false matches", and let's not get into the "conspiracy theory" debates (though I think that people will always speculate on that one  ::))

Just keep in mind that a missing birth certificate/baptismal record does not a half sister make! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2005, 01:59:21 PM »
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Something will come after DNA, I'm sure, which will help us discover new evidence.


Don't be so sure ....  ;)  8)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2005, 02:16:54 PM »
Quote


Let's not get silly and defensive here.

Like I said before , it's a free country. Research what you want. However, the point seems to be missed that the half sister issue is pretty meaningless, as mtDNA tests do not produce "false positives" or "false matches", and let's not get into the "conspiracy theory" debates (though I think that people will always speculate on that one  ::))

Just keep in mind that a missing birth certificate/baptismal record does not a half sister make! :)


Can't argue with anything you've said:
"A missing birth certificate/baptismal record does not a half sister make."

However, a birth certificate/baptismal record does make half sisters if the mothers are not the same.  And it is through the female line which presents the mtDNA which you and others have told us is  the "final evidence".  If they were not sisters, you'll have to take a giant step backward where I and some others haven't moved.

So let's put it this way, you may be a step ahead of me and some of the others, but that's okay, because we don't mind lagging back here on the fense  a little longer.  ::)


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2005, 02:21:15 PM »
Quote

Can't argue with anything you've said:
"A missing birth certificate/baptismal record does not a half sister make."

However, a birth certificate/baptismal record does make half sisters if the mothers are not the same.  And it is through the female line which presents the mtDNA which you and others have told us is  the "final evidence".  If they were not sisters, you'll have to take a giant step backward where I and some others haven't moved.


There is no reason for us to think that Gertrude and FS had different mothers. There would have been a reason for us to think so if AA's mtDNA and Carl Maucher's mtDNA did not match, but since it did match, why are we questioning that the original assumption was accurate? I'll tell you why: to try to prove that AA was not FS. That's the only reason. Well, that's not a good reason, we need some other compelling evidence of this, but there really is none. Unless it can be proven that their mothers were different, this is a moot point. The burden of proof lies with whomever is saying that they had different mothers, not with someone who is saying they had the same mothers.  
Just because Gertrude's baptismal papers are missing, it does not prove anything, in fact, it doesn't even imply anything. Only if the DNA did not match would we have a reason to come up with the "different mothers" theory, but this of course is not the case, and we have no other compelling evidence that this is the case, so why is this even being seriously considered.  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2005, 02:49:03 PM »
The majority believe FS and Gertrude were full sisters because of the DNA tests.  The post which wondered if FS was a half sister may prove to be  a contradictory statement, which a paradox needs, and a possible birth certificate which may show it's true that FS was not the full sister of Gertrude, but it is just Gertrude who is the relative of AA and not FS,  and, therein may be  a paradox.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

jeremygaleaz

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2005, 02:53:15 PM »
Quote
The majority believe FS and Gertrude were full sisters because of the DNA tests.  The post which wondered if FS was a half sister may prove to be  a contradictory statement, which a paradox needs, and a birth certificate which shows it's true that FS was not the full sister of Gertrude, but it is just Gertrude who is the relative of AA and not FS,  and, therein lays a paradox.

AGRBear


Huh? Do you have any specific evidence that Gertude was a half sister? Then you're just speculating with nothing to back it up.

But, it's a free country. Knock yourself out.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »