Author Topic: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem  (Read 79654 times)

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Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2005, 07:08:09 PM »
Yes Bear, it is nothing other than a Merry Go Round....


Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2005, 07:16:01 PM »
Posted by: Annie Posted on: Today at 5:12pm
LOL at anyone who supports Penny accusing ANYONE else of a 'personal agenda!'  


Whoa....if that isn't the case of the pot calling the kettle black....

I have lain my cards on the table about my expectations on this.  It could go either way.  However what I support is proven research, with an emphasis on getting at the truth.   If she is FS then fine, if she isn't then fine, it's just getting the questions answered that
seems to be the issue.  

Did you ever think if they get answered then the mystery may finally be put to rest, by others than yourself who are interested in finding the truth.

Oh & Annie PLEASE quit using the tired OJ analogy, or who won the Civil War, also a bit dated, and both not applicable in this instance.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2005, 07:46:58 PM »
Quote
Yes Bear, it is nothing other than a Merry Go Round....



Sorry Michael G. , I accidently pushed the wrong key about the post on the merry-go-'round and click it vanished.

I had ask in the  post what he'd like to ride on the merry-go-round we're being taken.

I chose the black horse because I always loved the story of Black Beauty.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2005, 08:45:58 PM »
Quote
Annie, if the CONDESCENSION would cease, as you all are so very good at inferring that everyone who doesn't believe the DNA 1000% is a quart low, then I think we could have a discussion, however it is impossible for you all to do, I have seen it while I was absent, and if you want civility, then my answer is to cut the crap.


OK, I again ask, and being most civil about it, please explain, please what is it you do not accept about DNA studies?  Please take the time to explore the process and how results are interpreted, and throw in a few scientific words for good measure. Otherwise, honestly, some of you come off as overgrown children, stamping your feet insisting that Santa Claus is real.  And Bear, please don't make light of this as you did with the moon/cheese comments.  I'm quite serious about this. Bottom line is: those who will not accept the various DNA results not only are showing profound ignorance of matters that are quite easily understood by the average person of even modest education, but you are happy to be in a fantasy world where science means nothing, but a supposed birth certificate (which has never turned up and if it did could not be proven either genuine or fake) is one of your fantastical holy grails!
And that is ok with you?
Please take some science courses. DNA is not difficult to understand, there is no great mystery.  In fact, one of the beauties of actual DNA and the process of extracting and interpreting it is extremely simple.
Why don't you look into this and learn more about science before you discount it?

No one answered my question about science backgrounds. I am not surprised, as anyone who has even taken Biol 101 would not make the type of statements that pop up on this forum every day.

rskkiya

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2005, 08:48:38 PM »
So is this site to be the new FS/AA  or  FS/not AA discussion thread? It seems we just keeep having the same debate under different topic headings.

rskkiya

(Michael G  - welcome back.)

Offline Olga

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2005, 11:06:15 PM »
Quote
No one answered my question about science backgrounds. I am not surprised, as anyone who has even taken Biol 101 would not make the type of statements that pop up on this forum every day.


I did. *meek voice*

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2005, 11:21:39 PM »
Vera, might I suggest that science is not the issue nor the DNA evidence.  I for one accept the DNA evidence.
So please, don't go down that well travelled road with me, AGAIN.

If you read my posts correctly you would see that I have NO PROBLEM with the DNA evidence.  Also there is a DNA thread for those who wish to discuss nothing but that, all DNA, ALL THE TIME....

Might I suggest that before you start calling people ignorant, that you take a good long look in the mirror, and think twice, as I for one am d*&m sick & tired of this attitude.  Also, this debate is NOT about the DNA it is about FS/AA and the  differences between the two
identities.   So I might I suggest you follow your own sage advice, take a course and bone up on previous
posts, Vera...

Offline Vera_Figner

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2005, 06:27:18 AM »
Quote
Annie, if the CONDESCENSION would cease, as you all are so very good at inferring that everyone who doesn't believe the DNA 1000% is a quart low, then I think we could have a discussion,


Why did you make this statement if you do not question the DNA results?  And yes, you made this statement in this thread.

You can't have it this way and the other as well. Not with regard to DNA science.

As to the rest of your message, I ask you to take your own, previously offered advice to "cut the crap."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Vera_Figner »

Offline Annie

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2005, 07:06:37 AM »
Quote

Why did you make this statement if you do not question the DNA results?  And yes, you made this statement in this thread.

You can't have is this way and the other as well. Not with regard to DNA science.

As to the rest of your message, I ask you to take your own, previously offered advice to "cut the crap."


Thanks Vera. You are exactly right. It's good to have another person here who can see this, I'm afraid those of us who have been trying for so long are being ignored or disregarded.

I have always wanted an answer to that, too. If a person claims they have no problem with the DNA, yet still put remote, questionable quotes about shoes and earrings over it, then they MUST not believe it! If they did, the silly shoe mixups wouldn't even matter! I would love to see a direct answer to this!

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2005, 09:33:57 AM »
Yes Vera you are exactly right, echos Annie from the background....

Annie shoe size is an issue.

The earring are not an issue.  Just a mere footnote.

My issues are with language, culture, PHYSICAL differences.

Annie who could keep from ignoring you, you are constantly like a spoiled unwanted child screaming the loudest from a group of screaming children.  So no one is ignoring you, it's just that some of us don't agree with you.  

Vera I have a suprise for you,  my issue is NOT with the DNA or it's results.  So please if you want to discuss DNA go to the DNA thread.....


Offline Annie

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2005, 09:43:14 AM »
Quote
Yes Vera you are exactly right, echos Annie from the background....


I regret posting that, since you only use it as a way to jump on me and avoid the question. If I hadn't posted perhaps you'd have given her a straight answer.

Quote
Annie shoe size is an issue.


No, it's not, because we have no proof the shoes were even hers! They could have mistaken. Even if they were hers, they could have been borrowed, or charity shoes that didn't fit, those were hard times. That's really not much!


Quote
My issues are with language, culture, PHYSICAL differences.


All of these things have comments from both sides, wiht varying answers. Why do you choose only to believe the ones you like? Since we have the DNA now, we know who was wrong and who wasn't.

Quote
Annie who could keep from ignoring you, you are constantly like a spoiled unwanted child screaming the loudest from a group of screaming children.  So no one is ignoring you, it's just that some of us don't agree with you.  


What I mean by ignoring me (not just me but anyone else trying to explain) is that all we say makes no difference to you, so perhaps you'd consider listening to a new person you don't hate yet?

Quote
Vera I have a suprise for you,  my issue is NOT with the DNA or it's results.  So please if you want to discuss DNA go to the DNA thread.....



As she asked, if you BELIEVE the DNA, how could the other things possibly make any difference to you? That's what she wants to know. If you believe the DNA, then you know who she was, shoes be damned. So if you still have questions, evidently you must NOT really be convinced by the DNA. Can you explain?

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2005, 10:22:59 AM »
Annie I have given her & you my D%&N ANSWER 100 times on this merry go round...I believe the DNA, the differences don't fall or melt away because of DNA, they still exist, in SPITE OF THE DNA...

How many times do I have to say this to YOU...

Annie the comments from people who knew are VERY IMPORTANT, and in most cases they are more than comments, they are testimony, affadavit, sworn statements, but since they are not revered royalty
we need to discount them.....

You & I are NEVER going to agree on this.  Why not just agree to disagree?  

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2005, 10:27:33 AM »
Michael, I think that they are absolultely right. If you accept DNA evidence for what it is, all other evidence, which is not definitive in any case, becomes irrellevant. Since various testimonies about all the things you mentioned were always contradictory to each other, we had no way of knowing which was correct. But DNA came along and put a rest to that. DNA evidence showed, unbiasely, where the answer lies.
For anyone who understands DNA and accepts it, that should pretty much be the end of it, unless out of curiousity you just want to find exaplanations for all the other evidence that contradicts it (but not negates it). And obviously there are explanations to all this other stuff, we just don't know what they are. But that doesn't mean that it can effectively contadict the DNA evidence, it can't. So someone continues doubting the answer that DNA gave us by bringing other evidence in, such as shoes, teeth and language abilities, it shows that this someone does not fully accept the DNA evidence. Anyone who fully understands what the DNA evidence means would see the absurdity of comparing DNA to shoes, teeth, bunions, language abilities, etc.

What I just said is probably going to make you angry and you may also accuse me of having personal agenda in this, but I assure you, the only personal agenda I have is to try to get across to the readers accurate information about what these DNA results actually mean, in comparison to the other evidence as well.  
If you accept DNA, it means you now have your answer  within 0.00025%, regardless of all the other, much less compelling, evidence. If you accept the other evidence, that means you are rejecting DNA results, which means you don't trust them for whatever reason. You can't accept the DNA results and also accept the other evidence like shoes, birth certificates, languages, etc. If you accept one then that means you reject the other, there is nothing in between...

DNA evidence tells us that although all these other claims exist about various contracdictory evidence, there are other possible explanations for the other evidence such as shoes and teeth, which may be that it was a mistaken testimony, lies, mix ups, whatever, but the explanations would be there. In contrast, there is no other possible explanation for what the DNA results showed us, none at all, unless you want to believe conspiracies, which of course you are welcome to, but you stated numerous times that you don't.

You should decide if you actually do believe DNA or you don't, and argue your points using other evidence based on that, but you really can't have it both ways... you can't say that you believe the DNA but that you believe the other evidence just as much.

Mgmstl

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2005, 11:32:30 AM »
Helen again, & I politely & respectfully state to you, that
the DNA is not the issue.  

Believing the DNA is not the issue.

What remains to be discussed and researched and analyzed are the differences.   Of course we could just leave them to another generation to ferret out, and
argue over.   The differences do not just melt away because of the DNA, they remain.    


My question for you is, why do you continue to discuss it, if the DNA answers all your questions??  Again my statement is, if it ends the argument for you then stay out of the discussion, as you or Agenda Ridden Annie, or Vera, or Jeremy will not change my mind

I truly don't care to discuss this any further.  You know
what my position is and how I feel on this matter.

Offline Annie

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Re: the 'mundane' idea - a paradox and a problem
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2005, 11:49:28 AM »
The differences DO just melt away because of the DNA! Because once we got that, we know she was FS, and now we know that the other details were all incorrect because we have our answer! I don't know how anyone can spell it out more plainly than Helen did- if you believe the DNA, you couldn't possibly still question AA's identity, and if you do, you couldn't totally believe the DNA!

And consider too, there were conflicting details of ALL the evidence you cling to- which means it couldn't all be right, some of it had to be wrong. But what? Well, now that we have the DNA, the mystery is solved, we know her identity, and anything to the contrary was a lie, a mixup or an unfortunate mistake. This is not my opinion or an agenda, this is REALITY!!!