Author Topic: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information  (Read 123332 times)

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Offline Marc

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2005, 07:43:30 AM »
GDElla,thanks for your info!Do you know who might it be because the dresses look like from Napoleonic era?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2005, 10:08:59 AM »
I'm sorry I don't.  :(  That era isn't really my field of expertise and it can be so hard with paintings like that as opposed to actual photographs or portraits that were posed for.
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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2005, 10:34:47 AM »
Nerdycool, what an interesting theory! Even if it wasn't the cause of the migraines, it cannot have helped to ease them carrying such great weight - especially when they had hats & hat pins and everything else piled on top of their heads!!
I wonder if there is another similarly simple theory which could account for their psychiatric problems....

Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2005, 01:47:07 PM »
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It's her parents who are not in the photo. From left to right you can see: Sophie, Max Emmanuel, Karl Theodor, Ludwig, Helene, Mathilde and Marie (or Marie and Mathilde)


Thanks!  No wonder...i thought the two eldest look a little too young to have so many children but i never thought the parents aren't in the portrait.

Offline Chris_H

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2005, 02:07:44 PM »
I really enjoyed reading all the comments about migraines (even though it is not enjoyable if you have them) and what could of caused them, in the Kaiser family, you inherit them also with a love of books and history :)  Is it true that Sissi's mother was in love with Prince of Portugal or Braganza, it said that in Reluctant Empress?

Offline Ildiko

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2005, 02:40:58 PM »
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I really enjoyed reading all the comments about migraines (even though it is not enjoyable if you have them) and what could of caused them, in the Kaiser family, you inherit them also with a love of books and history :)  Is it true that Sissi's mother was in love with Prince of Portugal or Braganza, it said that in Reluctant Empress?


Yes that's true. Ludovika was in love with Dom Miguel of Portugal (later Miguel I). Her father didn't allow them to marry because Miguel was only a second son, although I think it's odd because Max also didn't have much fortune. He couldn't have known that shortly after Ludovika's marriage with Max, Miguel became King of Portugal (even if only for a short time).

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2005, 05:29:11 PM »
Hi everybody ! I have gathered many pics of Sisi's brothers and sisters but do not know how to post them. I would willingly send them to anyone who could post them for me. Let me know.

Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2005, 11:51:56 PM »
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Yes that's true. Ludovika was in love with Dom Miguel of Portugal (later Miguel I). Her father didn't allow them to marry because Miguel was only a second son, although I think it's odd because Max also didn't have much fortune. He couldn't have known that shortly after Ludovika's marriage with Max, Miguel became King of Portugal (even if only for a short time).


All of Ludovika's sisters married foreign princes/kings except for her.  Most of them made illustrious marriages too.  Maybe her father was like QV and Alix ::).    

Thomas_A.

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2005, 05:28:40 PM »
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Sissi's parents and siblings (i think sophie and mathilde are not in this portrait).  


The portrait shows all of Sisi's siblings. The two eldest are not the parents but Ludwig and Helene

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2005, 07:45:27 AM »
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Hi everybody ! I have gathered many pics of Sisi's brothers and sisters but do not know how to post them. I would willingly send them to anyone who could post them for me. Let me know.


Agneschen - I have a copy of a VERY clear IM which Angie sent me to show how to post pictures via photobucket. I'll IM it to you.  :)

Offline Shvibzik

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2005, 06:40:19 PM »
Helen and Sissi

Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2005, 08:04:21 PM »
Helen doesn't look too happy in the pic above  :P

Thanks for the great pics!

Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2005, 10:42:28 PM »
yeah i find her to be rather unattractive. She looks too much like Gackel.  :-[

Those pics of Marie are incredible. I espesially like the one of her and, I assume, her children and husband. They look like old daguerreotypes. Anyone have an idea on the dates?
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2005, 11:51:34 PM »
Marie Sophia:



Interestingly she apparently had illegitimate twins who were taken from her during her widowhood! Here is some things written about her (compiled from a few places):
By the age of 19, Maria Sophia had been a queen, lost her kingdom, rallied soldiers around her in the hopeless defence of a lost cause, and had had men —even her enemies—writing reams of romantic slush about her. She was "the angel of Gaeta" who would "wipe your brow if you were wounded or cradle you in her arms while you died". D'Annunzio called her the "stern little Bavarian eagle" and Marcel Proust spoke of the "soldier queen on the ramparts of Gaeta". She was intelligent, lovely, and headstrong; she could ride a horse and defend herself with a sword.  She was everything you could ask for—a combination of Amazon and Angel of Mercy.  

In 1859 Maria Sophia married Francesco II of Bourbon, the son of Ferdinand II, King of Naples. Within the year, with the death of the king, her husband ascended to the throne and Maria Sophia gave up the frivolous court pursuits of a princess and took on the full-time responsibilities as queen of a realm that was shortly to be overwhelmed by the forces of Garibaldi and Italian unity. To avoid bloodshed in the major city of Naples, the king and his army retreated to Gaeta to make what turned out to be a last stand.

In late 1860 and early 1861, the forces of Victor Emanuel II  lay siege to the stronghold of Gaeta and eventually overcame the defenders. It was this brief episode that gained Maria Sophia the reputation that stayed with her for the rest of her life. She was tireless in her efforts to rally the defenders, giving them her own food, caring for the wounded, and daring the attackers to come within range of the fortress cannon. She refused the chivalrous offer from the attacking general that if she would but mark her residence with a flag, he would make sure not to fire upon it with artillery. Go ahead and shoot at me, she said; I will be where the men are. In one lighthearted episode—if anything at all can relieve the horrors of a four-month siege—she assembled the men on the seaside rampart, had them turn around, pull down their trousers and "moon" the attacker fleet. She was worshipped unto idolatry by her men.

The defense was in vain. There are many accounts of the Bourbon defense of Gaeta, written at the time or shortly thereafter. Among the most interesting is Journal du siège de Gaëte by the Belgian journalist, Charles Garnier (published in Brussels in 1861). The author was in the besieged fortress town for the duration, his daily journal entries running from November 4, 1860 through February 14, 1861. The account skimps on personal descriptions of King Francis and Queen Maria Sophia, "so as not to place vain ornaments at the foot of the pedestal for which the Bourbons of Naples are destined." Yet, the few details are kind, describing how the Queen placed her own food at the disposal of the wounded, and so forth. Garnier's last image of the Queen is after the surrender, as the French ship, Mouette, leaves Gaeta to carry the royal family into exile: "The queen remained by herself at the prow, leaning on the railing and contemplating the cliffs of Gaeta." When it was over, the Bourbon officers and men could choose to go home or even take leave and then return to be part of the new all–Italian army.  

Maria Sophia and her husband went into exile in Rome, the capital of what for 1,000 years had been the sizeable Vatican States. By 1860, however, they had been reduced to the city of Rome, itself, as the armies of Victor Emanuel II came down from the north to join up with Garibaldi, the conqueror of the south.

An article by William Chauncey Langdon entitled "The Last Stand of the Italian Bourbons" appeared in The Atlantic Monthly for November 1884. It contained remembrances of the family from 1860s. 'The young queen ever won upon the kindly interest and sympathy of every one who looked upon her almost girlish figure, her fair face and placid brow, and who thought what it must be to be the wife of an exiled king of Naples...With the queen we were all pleased. She is perhaps not beautiful, but very bright and interesting, — a face full of spirit.'

Another item from the popular press contains one person's memories of Maria Sophia. The article was entitled "Royal Exiles and Imperial Parvenus." It was signed only by "An Englishwoman" and appeared in an American magazine, The Galaxy, in the issue for October 1872—just two years after the Papal State fell once and for all to the forces of Italy, and the ex-King and Queen had moved elsewhere. Her perceptions are mixed:  

'The Palazzo Farnese in Rome was, when I knew it in 1863, the refuge of that modern Joan of Arc, the ex-Queen of Naples… She seemed to me the most lovely vision I had ever seen. Her dark hair…reached half way down her back, and seemed ready to burst the wide-meshed net that confined it. Her eyes and color added to the sprightly, bewitching beauty of her face, and her carriage was absolutely the most willowy and graceful I ever saw.… Physically brave and enduring she certainly was, having been fearlessly and boyishly brought up, inured to exercise, accustomed to adventure, and fond of all athletic exercises. But there the dream of Joan of Arc must end; the high moral resolve, the far-seeing grasp of mind, were utterly wanting… So fair a shrine, but so feeble a lamp within! It was a pity to see her thus. She was seldom in Rome, and only came in occasionally to receive her husband’s subjects and the “distinguished foreigners” who wished to be presented to the “heroine of Gaeta.”  '

In 1870, Rome fell to the forces of Italy; the Papal States shrank to a few acres on the banks of the Tiber, and the King and Queen moved into exile elsewhere. The king died in 1894. Maria Sophia spent time in Munich, and then moved to Paris. Her activities were, however, far from over. Maria Sophia, herself, said that even if she could never get her kingdom back, she could at least get revenge.  It was rumored that Maria Sophia was involved in the assassination of King Humbert in 1900. She knew the anarchists who recruited the assassins. That is not evidence of anything, of course, but it certainly fed the rumor mills of united Italy for a few years—the ex-queen helping to commit murder (!) out of some deranged desire for revenge on those who had taken her realm.

During World War I, she was actively on the side of Germany and Austria in their war with Italy. Again, the rumors claimed she was involved in sabotage and espionage against Italy in the hope that an Italian defeat would tear the nation apart and that the kingdom of Naples would be restored.  All of that was rendered moot by the great political and social changes in Europe between the time of her role as a "modern Joan of Arc" in 1860 and her death in 1925: Her own Kingdom of Bavaria was taken up into a united German Empire; Italy became, irrevocably, a single nation state; some four million Italians (most of them from the south, the ex-kingdom of the Two Sicilies)  emigrated to America between 1880 and 1920 ; and European nations were devastated by the Great War. She lived to see Mussolini take power in Italy and to see Hitler make his first move in Germany. (Maria Sophia was still active enough in her 80s to stand at the window of her apartment in Munich and look at anarchists and police battling in the streets. She wanted "to see if young people of today still have the stuff they had when I was young.”)  

The wealth and privilege in Maria Sophia's life were, to a certain extent, overshadowed by personal tragedies. Her only child by her husband died in infancy. Also, thanks to Armand de Lawayss, a Belgian count and officer in the foreign forces holed up in Rome, she had twins in 1862. Both of them survived and both were taken from her by her all-wise, scandal-conscious royal Bavarian relatives. It is not clear that she ever saw them again, except once or twice, briefly and under supervision. In the late 1890s, her younger sister, Sophie, died heroically while trying to help others from a burning building. Shortly thereafter, in 1898, her sister Elizabeth was stabbed to death by an anarchist.  

Maria Sophia died in Munich in 1925. The January 20, 1925 edition of il Mattino, the largest newspaper in Naples, the ex-capital of her ex-kingdom—65 years after she had ceased to be relevant to the affairs of southern Italy—still saw fit to devote two full columns to her on the front page beneath the banner headline, "Maria Sofia, ex-queen of Naples, is dead." The write-up was almost totally positive, dwelling on the queen's personal courage, anti-traditionalism, and generosity. It pointed out how she visited and consoled Italian prisoners of war interned in Germany during WW I, and how she made sure—to the very end of her life when she, herself, was not well-off, financially—to maintain pension payments to the last of her personal servants, a man who had served her in Gaeta 65 years earlier. The paper made no mention of any supposed connection between her and Italian anarchists nor supposed involvement in a plot to assassinate King Humbert in 1900. The article, in a single negative note, said that Maria Sophia had been responsible for  "organizing banditry in the 1860s in the south." Other than that, the paper praised her with "She was one of those European princesses who, with her great gifts, would have had another destiny but for the dramatic events of her times."

She, her husband, and their only child found their last resting place in 1984 when their remains were brought to Naples and interred in the Church of Santa Chiara.




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Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2005, 03:52:44 AM »
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yeah i find her to be rather unattractive. She looks too much like Gackel.  :-[

Those pics of Marie are incredible. I espesially like the one of her and, I assume, her children and husband. They look like old daguerreotypes. Anyone have an idea on the dates?


They are her children.  She had a daughter by her husband but she didn't live pass childhood.  She also had another illegitimate child before...  I don't remember what happened to the illegitmate child tho.  I believe he/she did not live pass childhood and was raised by the father...  am I right?  

Could the children be her nieces/nephews??