Author Topic: Rasputin & Nicholas  (Read 33247 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2007, 04:12:07 AM »
  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.
Where did you read Dimitri's account? As far as I know, he remained silent on the subject and his thoughts died with him.
But I understand your point- "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest ?" But it still is beyond the realm of possibility, knowing what we do of NII.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2007, 08:15:21 AM »
But do you really think Nicholas would have sent them into exile if he was involved all along? I think not.

Is it really hard to see Dmitri saying, "I will handle this for you?"  Obviously if the Tsar did not exile Dmitri, it would have looked suspicious. Couldn't he have placed Dmitri in prison instead? The Tsar, I truly believe, knew the state of affairs in his country by this time and could certainly have thought Dmitri would have been better off out of the country.  Did he suffer greatly in exile and did not his exile save his life?
How does true loyalty show itself? Did a man, out of loyalty to his country, not fly a plane into a naval ship in Pearl Harbour, full well knowing it would end his life? How many soldiers, out of loyalty to a fellow soldier, lost their lives, to save another?

  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.
Where did you read Dimitri's account? As far as I know, he remained silent on the subject and his thoughts died with him.
But I understand your point- "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest ?" But it still is beyond the realm of possibility, knowing what we do of NII.

Actually I think it was just Felix's account.  So if Dmitri remained silent, that seems to be even more compelling that he could have been protecting the Tsar, if he were involved. As for something being "beyond the realm of possibility", I would say my rabbit speaking Japanese would be beyond the realm of possibilty or the tree outside my window pulling itself out of the ground and running down the street.  These type of things I see as beyond the realm of possibility, not the idea that the Tsar, being human, could have come up with a great plan to get rid of Rasputin.
Now, you say "knowing what we know about NII", could you clarify what you mean? Thanks.




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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2007, 08:56:42 AM »
Dmitri and Felix took the whole blame on themselves because they KNEW Nicholas II couldn't punish them more than beyond exile. Any other co-conspirators who were not of the Imperial Blood could face severe punishment even death.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2007, 02:45:59 PM »
It is interesting to think outside the box when it comes to history, etc, but there are some things that most certainly didn't happen. This is one of them. Certainly, some people in that position might have done that with regards to Nicholas II, and what he might have done/ didn't do. Rasputin was an issue for the country, but Nicholas although he undoubtedly must have had more conflicted feelings than his wife about Rasputin, wasn't about to do something like this, for all of the reasons provided earlier on this thread.

If he had, I dare say that there would have been some trace, some slip, and someone earlier than the person who started this thread would have caught it, or it would at least have featured as a conspiracy theory or a rumor somewhere among the vast material on the end of the Romanovs, including Rasputin's death. Someone would have raised it by now, even though it might have been obvious it wasn't true. The best evidence to me this never happened is the fact that no one has mentioned it by now in a book or anything, with proof or no, as far as my knowledge goes. If not, enlighten me. The decoy theory of AA has more possibility than this, and that is something that has sort of been raised before, in the kids movie Anastasia, just a bit.

Offline RichC

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2007, 04:08:59 PM »
I did not mean that I think the Tsar pulled the trigger or was present at the murder.  I do believe that Dmitri and Felix killed him, but I wonder if the Tsar did not mention the idea at some point. I really do not see it to be unbelievable.  I read Dmitri and Felix's accounts years ago, but I do not recall what they said.  Did they give a point when they decided to do it and why or how they came up with the idea?  If they made a big, huge statement saying that they acted alone, no one made them do it, and they acted completely alone that would make it sound as if they were trying to protect someone.

I suppose one could claim that if Nicholas wanted Rasputin removed, the best way would have been to have had Rasputin killed and make it look like someone else was responsible -- that way Nicholas would be off the hook with the Tsarina.  Exile would not be an option in this scenario, because Alexandra would work night and day to bring him back to Petersburg.  With Rasputin dead, the Empress could not hound Nicholas to bring him back from an enforced exile.

But the downside to having members of the family involved would have been too great.  One has to remember that killing Rasputin (regardless of who was behind it) did nothing to avert the revolution.  One could make a good argument that the participation of royal kin only did more damage to the monarchy and the prestige of the Romanov family.  I think Nicholas realized that at the time (although many others did not).  So, it seems extremely unlikely that Nicholas would have resorted to enlisting family members to take part in the plot.  Besides, Nicholas had vast resources at his disposal to get rid of Rasputin without sullying his hands or the hands of any of his relatives or noblemen.  Rasputin could simply have been found dead somewhere and nobody would have been the wiser.  Or one of Rasputin's known enemies (non-royal, non-noble) could have been "helped" along in committing the deed.

So, I would conclude, based solely on what we know about how Rasputin was killed and who was involved (I realize some details are still murky), it would indicate that Nicholas was definitely NOT involved.  Again, I'm basing this merely on the way the murder was carried out. 

If Nicholas was involved, it would have happened differently.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2007, 05:10:27 PM »
I think RichC has hit the nail on the head.  Nicholas II had not only enormous resources of money and power at the time, he also had the Okhrana, Secret security police, and lord knows how many loyal people (even that late) who could have made Rasputin disappear so totally that not even the body would be found "if" he had actually wanted it to be so.  The killing itself was so very sloppy, the body was discovered so readily and the evidence of the murder itself speak to the fact that whoever may have pulled the trigger, they were amateurs.   Nicholas would have made sure his people "if" he had wanted R. murdered were far more professional at the task.

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2007, 07:08:43 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Nicholas and Alexandra were deeply distrustful of the police.  Alix particularly because of Rasputin.  I thought the police tracked the IF's movements as much as enemies of the state.

Looking at the scenerio Charley proposes and how men can often behave with ill wives especially those of a whinny nature, I could see Nicholas proposing this "mission" to Dmitri.  Up until the time of Rasputin's death, he seemed to be one of the few family members who was close to the Tsar and spent much time with him.

I wonder if anyone has the answer to the question Charley proposed about the last time Rasputin healed Alexei.  I think that could be significant as to whether or not Nicholas valued his services.  I would imagine there must have been some doubt in his mind after the whole Spala thing.  I am not aware of any other "faith healer" who performs miracles long distance.  Also I can't remember the name of the book but it was written by a FR. Walsh, a catholic priest of all things, who was in Russia at this time.  He talked about how Anna V. would administer herbs to Alexei.  I never saw anything else to verify that claim in other sources but found it interesting.  I just wonder how much Rasputin actually did,  Alexei rode a sled down a staircase during the IF's captivity and he managed to survive that just fine.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2007, 07:50:13 PM »
The decoy theory of AA has more possibility than this, and that is something that has sort of been raised before, in the kids movie Anastasia, just a bit.
lol And that in itself is pretty implausible.

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2007, 08:02:44 PM »
Look, it did NOT happen. unless and until someone can come up with genuine EVIDENCE beyond mere speculation this subject is closed. We have repeatedly stated that this forum is for the discussion of FACTS or EVIDENCE and not speculation. If you want to speculate on such rubbish, find another place.

FA

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2007, 08:05:04 PM »
Look, it did NOT happen. unless and until someone can come up with genuine EVIDENCE beyond mere speculation this subject is closed. We have repeatedly stated that this forum is for the discussion of FACTS or EVIDENCE and not speculation. If you want to speculate on such rubbish, find another place.

FA

I have to agree. Endless specualtion with no geniune evidence gets us nowhere.

Offline charley

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2007, 08:08:04 PM »
 ???

Offline RichC

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2007, 08:43:56 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Nicholas and Alexandra were deeply distrustful of the police.  Alix particularly because of Rasputin.  I thought the police tracked the IF's movements as much as enemies of the state.

Where is this coming from?  I never heard or read that Nicholas and Alexandra were "deeply distrustful of the police".  The police tracked the IF's movements the same way that the Secret Service tracks the movements of President Bush, his family, and hundreds of other government officials.  Same idea.  You are just making up stuff here.

Looking at the scenerio Charley proposes and how men can often behave with ill wives especially those of a whinny nature, I could see Nicholas proposing this "mission" to Dmitri.  Up until the time of Rasputin's death, he seemed to be one of the few family members who was close to the Tsar and spent much time with him.

Again you are making things up.  Ridiculous but unintentionally funny.  How many men, "with ill wives especially those of a whiny nature", resort to murder?  Also, why kill Rasputin?  Why not just have Dmitri kill the whiny-natured ill wife instead?

I just wonder how much Rasputin actually did,  Alexei rode a sled down a staircase during the IF's captivity and he managed to survive that just fine.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

That's right.  Alexei survived the sled accident "just fine".  He was seen doing cartwheels in front of the Ipatiev house right before the execution.

Shall we move this thread to the "Having Fun" section.  I'm having a good time.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 08:49:58 PM by RichC »

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2007, 09:09:21 PM »
???

Do you not understand that speculation without evidence to support the suppositions is USELESS? We are not here to engage in a series of "what if" speculative threads. We are used by Universities, High Schools and elementary schools and thus we have a responsibilty to keep discussion based in fact not speculative fiction.

Offline Pegschalet

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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2007, 09:17:17 PM »
Well it looks like Charley has been shut down again.  It's interesting because her threads always generate alot of buzz.  183 views to this thread and 21 replies.  I guess some of us enjoy these discussions.  My question would be, what is the issue.  Those that don't want to participate don't have to.  Charley was not posing this as fact but as a what if scenerio.  It's interesting because the thread is never shut down with Charley's initial questions which can be a little "out there".  If these types of discussions are not allowed than why is the thread allowed to start.  It's frustrating when you get interested in a topic and it is struck down after you have invested time in it.  I'm sure there are many who would rather have you kill the thread immediately.  I just wonder what Charley wrote that was so controversial it couldn't be posted.  


As to Rich c., you are so kind! I hope during my time here I have given everyone due respect.  
The Police: That is the impression I took away from my readings, at this time can I quote you every page or document no.  As I said that was the impression I had.  I did not "make this up".

Ill wife:  I can agree I didn't express myself very clearly and am too tired at this point to rewrite my point so I conceed on this one.  

As to Alexei, by survive, I meant live; not dancing a jig.  The point being he suffered a bout of his illness and recovered without Rasputin.

I'll be honest with you guys.  I just cannot believe how mean some posters can be on this sight.  If I was a young person doing research for a report or pursuing an interest in the IF, I would be devastated by some of the comments I've seen posted on this forum.  I not refering only to ones directed at me, they have been very mild compared to some on the forum.  I just don't understand why someone has to resort to personal attacks to make their point.  I'm sure it's easier and more fun to go for the cheapshot.

It is interesting to me how everyone of us posting here has probably all read the same 20 or so books most of which use the same sources, repeating the same stories with slightly different spins and we all take away different impressions.  There are quite a few "experts" on the forum and I'm sure we all know who we are.  Something about this story fasinates us, causes us to read unceasingly, blow small fortunes on "rare books" of dubious quality, spend hours looking for something "new" on the web but the one thing that ties us all together is our love for this family and this story which we can't seem to let go of.  So my plea is can we show each other a little mutual respect and enjoy our shared passion

Thank-you



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Re: Tsar involved in Rasputin's death?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2007, 09:25:40 PM »
I allow such threads to start because I always hope that perhaps the poster has some evidence to support the topic, I always allow the discussion time to hopefully bring in some genuine evidence beyond mere fictional supposition before getting strict. Is that a problem?