Author Topic: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family  (Read 170076 times)

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Offline Sissi

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2006, 01:58:12 PM »
in any case it is sad that she did not think of giving her daughters a more solid education, I know thta back then a princess did not need much but still, I believe marie Josephe de Saxe had a pretty good education as Mesdames de France had! I don t know but I don t see Marie Therese as a very loving mother, I know she cared a lot about her children she was truly preocupied by Marie Amelie and Marie Antoinette, but still I don t believe she was quite affectionate, Marie Antoinette was always afraid of her mother. It is sad that such a smart woman did not saw the importance of giving her daughters a proper education that would have enable them to be at ease in their role as queen consort, besides that Marie Therese wanted them to serve as mediator and influence the policies of their adoptive country in favor of the hapsbourg.

I know Marie Caroline was terribly grief at her sister `s death but what was marie Christine and Marie Amelie reaction to it??

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2006, 01:12:10 PM »
Maria Theresa was a very controlling parent to all her children except for Maria Christine, 'Mimi', and it was as if she indulged herself by having one favorite - very unfair on the rest of the family.  All Mimi's brothers and sisters resented the favoritism and also resented the control.  The picture one often gets of the huge family as a harmonious whole at the theatre, engaged in useful pursuits, in domestic occupations, is in strong contrast to the actuality of the distance and domineering of Maria Theresa, who mainly managed her family through governesses and tutors and later, diplomatic spies.  She wanted her daughters especially to be brought up to obey her and to make good marriages, and education came a very long way behind docility and good manners.  Maria Amalia and Maria Carolina took the opportunity offered by less intelligent husbands to seize political control, with varying degrees of success, and certainly in Maria Amalia's case one must question whether her wild behaviour was caused by her desire to challenge her mother's domination.  I'm not sure a good education would have helped.

However, even with the boys who were carefully educated, the domination was there and often had unfortunate results.  Joseph's disastrous second marriage was relentlessly inflicted on him by his parents (in this Franz Stephan showed himself just as controlling as Maria Theresa) and his retaliation was to simply refuse to make any choice of second bride whatsoever, leave it entirely to his parents, and then refuse to show any interest in the wife selected for him (there isn't any evidence that he in fact mistreated her or said that ugly thing about her body being covered with boils, but he did neglect her).  

Leopold also did not was not quite the urbane figure he seems from a distance.  His feelings towards Mimi have been quoted earlier and Derek Beales' interesting biography of Joseph II mentions Leopold's diary entries suggesting he bitterly resented Joseph's continual advice as well.  There clearly was a lot of anger under the surface there.

In short, Maria Theresa managed to bring up a very modern, dysfunctional family!

Offline gogm

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2006, 02:28:29 AM »
There's a great German site with many .png images of the Empress and her children at:

http://www.zi.fotothek.org/obj/obj19051617/Galerie . :)

Offline LenelorMiksi

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2007, 06:50:02 PM »
...and the whole family together (sorry for the bad quality)

1751, by Meytens:



I don't think this was painted in 1751 because I remember reading that M. Antoinette is the girl to the right of the baby, & she wasn't born until 1755. The baby is Maximilian (I think).  This painting has intrigued me for the longest time because there are 11 Archdukes & Archduchesses, & when Max was born Maria Theresa had 13 living children.  I'm hypothesizing that Maria Anna (1738-1789) & Karl Josef (1744-1761) are the ones missing from the portrait.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 06:52:08 PM by LenelorMiksi »
Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse:  "Each year brings us nearer to the Wiedersehen [reunion with the dead], though it is sad to think how one's glass is running out, & how little good goes with it, compared to the numberless blessings we receive.  Time goes incredibly fast."

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2007, 01:38:25 PM »
As Karl Joseph was Maria Theresia's favourite son, I would be really surprised if we wasn't on this family painting.  ???
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
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Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


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Offline britt.25

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2007, 02:13:34 AM »
The book "Die deutschen Kaiser" by Georg Johannes Kugler says that on the family portrait the boy with the red dress, who stands rather in the middle of the picture, is the future emperor Joseph II., whereas the boy with the white dress (it is stated that it is an hungarian uniform) on the far right right, next to empress Maria Theresia, who takes his hand, is Karl Joseph, who died at the age of fourteen.

For me it is a bit strange, that, if you look at the portrait- which is indeed a wonderful painting- all faces of the people are very similar, too similar in my view. Surely siblings have similarities, but the faces are too identical, on later portraits it is to see, without any doubt- that all siblings are a bit different, especially for example Leopold II. and his predecessor and brother Joseph II. They were different not only different in their characters, but also in their statures and their lookings. 

 
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Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2007, 04:55:58 AM »
That's right, Britt. In Schönbrunn I was once told that it was Maria Theresia's order that her children had to be painted quite identically, because she didn't want them to argue. If they all looked almost the same, no one could have said: "Oh, look, I am so much prettier than you!"  ;)
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


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Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2007, 07:06:39 PM »

Maria Karoline (Charlotta) - I don't know her other names ...


She had no other names. She  died on the sameday of her brith. :(
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 07:10:14 PM by Mandie, the Gothic Empress »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2007, 08:37:15 PM »
i think there was 3 Maria Karolinas... ???

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2007, 06:30:22 AM »
i think there was 3 Maria Karolinas... ???

That's right. Maria Theresia seemed to have a preference for the name "Caroline". She was very close to Caroline Gräfin Fuchs Mollard who educated her. Maybe she also wanted to honour her father Emperor Karl and wanted to have at least one daughter named after him.

Maria Caroline Ernestina Antonia Josepha Johanna  (1740-1741)
Maria Caroline (September 17th 1748) ... sometimes she is also called "Charlotte", "Carlotta" or even "Christine"
Maria Caroline Ludovica Josepha Johanna Antonia (1752-1848), Queen of the Two Sicilies ... known as "Maria Karolina"

Emperor Franz I. and his second wife Maria Theresia, herself daughter of Archduchess Maria Karolina, who were both grandchildren of Maria Theresia, also had three daughters called "Caroline":

Caroline Leopoldine (1794-1795)
Caroline Louise (1795-1799)
Carolina Ferdinanda (1801-1832), Crownprincess of Saxony
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2007, 08:15:17 PM »
I think Caroline (Naples) was closest to MA's heart, although she also written to Maria Amalia (Parma) and Maria Christina (Brussels) as well.  :)

Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2007, 11:41:49 AM »
Yes, it seems that Marie Antoinette and Caroline were as close as two peas in a pod - so much so that at one point I think Maria Theresa threatened to separate them.

It's interesting that the two closest friendships of Marie Antoinette's life in France (the Princess de Lamballe and the Duchesse de Polignac) were with women a few years older than she was, just as Caroline had been.  Perhaps, unconsciously, she was trying to recreate the close bond she had enjoyed with her sister as a girl.

Sorry, that's off point for the thread!

I guess that any jealousy Amalia may have felt at her youngest sister making such a splendid marriage would have ended with the revolution and its dreadful outcome.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2007, 11:52:13 AM »
After the revolution the Princess Royale wrote to her aunt Marie Caroline "My mother often spoke of you, she loved you more than any of her sisters"

Sad that the sisters never saw each other again.
Grief is the price we pay for love.

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Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2007, 04:02:20 PM »
Isn't it?  Marie Antoinette was only 12 when Caroline went to Naples (and Amalia to Parma - I think the two of them married in the same year).  I guess that was the fate of Princesses then, being packed off to a foreign court in your teens and quite possibly never seeing any of your family again.  I suppose they were brought up to expect it but it still must have been both hard and frightening.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2007, 03:29:49 AM »
Quote
I suppose they were brought up to expect it but it still must have been both hard and frightening.

I think that is exactly why the rest of the family were so angry about Maria Christina.  Joseph was forced into a second marriage he didn't want, Maria Amalia was forced into a marriage she didn't want, and certainly Maria Caroline and Marie Antoinette had no choice about their marriages, and pretty uncomfortable times in them at first (leaving aside what happened later).  To be made to do their duty, receive stern admonishments from their mother telling them to do their duty and put up with enforced intimacy which they would have never chosen for themselves, would have been something they could possibly have gritted their teeth and put up with if they didn't have the spectacle of Maria Christina being allowed to marry the obscure, poor, prince of her choice (albeit of very good birth, and a Habsburg on his mother's side) and being made Governess of the Netherlands with him.  It  must have given the others a real kick in the teeth, and worse, a vision of possibilities other than the royal path of duty.  Of course when the chips were down they were still family and stuck together, but the chips had to be pretty far down.