Author Topic: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family  (Read 175439 times)

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Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #390 on: February 28, 2015, 10:47:48 PM »
It's hard to tell how these particular siblings felt about one another, in the absence of personal correspondence or other evidence.  In Leopold's memorandum on his family which was written in 1778-79, he felt that Maria Theresa treated his "sisters Maria Anna and Elizabeth....very badly", which does imply a certain sympathy, but in writing of why the empress did this, Leopold also suggested he agreed with the reasons: "Maria Anna because she always intrigues in everything and...Elizabeth because she gossips and passes everything on as soon as she hears it.....[the empress] repeats that she cannot trust either daughter and is quite unhappy with them." In other words, he did not agree with the apparent harshness with which the empress treated these sisters, but he didn't appear to deny he thought Maria Anna intrigued and Maria Elisabeth gossiped and was indiscreet.  

I'm not surprised that both archduchesses behaved that way. Not that it excuses them but the general atmosphere in Vienna was -  and elsewhere where the imperial children were  -  prone to backbiting, prying and fighting (except maybe in Parma after France and Spain gave up their control of the duchy).  Maria Theresa also didn't help in solving this, she was the first to promote such (she was played one child vs. the other, said damaging things about one sibling to another). Not to mention the apparent "idleness" of two (well, Maria Elisabeth more than Maria Anna).  And to be fair to the two, MT disapproved of her children's behavior, except Mimi's (although she still favored Maria Carolina, Ferdinand and Maximilian - on Maria Carolina, I haven't read any particularly special/costly gifts; it's just that bad reports on her were unwelcome).

In the same memorandum, Leopold wrote of Max Franz that the "empress loves Maximilian very much, but she believes he is completely on the emperor's side and is thus totally lost and ruined by the fickleness of life-none of which is true.....She values him not at all."  He therefore distinguished Max Franz from his two sisters by defending him, suggesting he himself put a value on this brother if his mother did not.  Leopold and Max Franz corresponded on affairs of the empire at the end of Joseph's life, when Leopold was essentially intriguing with his brothers and sisters to ensure he was in a strong position to establish himself as emperor and to recoup what Joseph had lost.  He was also in correspondence with Maria Carolina at that stage for the same reasons.  Of course this doesn't add much in personal terms, though it does establish the real worry the siblings had about the fate of the empire and their determination to provide support for the next emperor.  
   

Again, thank you very much, CountessKate.

It's weird how MT "dismissed" Maximilian simply because she thought him pro-Joseph. It seems to me that her perspective was either a child was for her or against her. No wonder Maria Amalia was in her bad books (i.e. defying her mother and I'm almost sure it also didn't help that MT knew Amalia liked Joseph, although he didn't like her). Maximilian didn't do badly like the others in terms of being a ruler or consort and he wasn't into quarreling with or intriguing against his siblings.  I agree that all of this showed worry among the siblings about the fate of the empire and their dynasty and also to help pick up the pieces after Joseph. But it also showed their personal characteristics, without the interference/influence of their mother.  
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:59:59 PM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #391 on: March 01, 2015, 04:40:42 AM »
In Leopold's memorandum on his family which was written in 1778-79, he felt that Maria Theresa treated his "sisters Maria Anna and Elizabeth....very badly", which does imply a certain sympathy, but in writing of why the empress did this, Leopold also suggested he agreed with the reasons: "Maria Anna because she always intrigues in everything and...Elizabeth because she gossips and passes everything on as soon as she hears it.....[the empress] repeats that she cannot trust either daughter and is quite unhappy with them." In other words, he did not agree with the apparent harshness with which the empress treated these sisters, but he didn't appear to deny he thought Maria Anna intrigued and Maria Elisabeth gossiped and was indiscreet.  

With this, I see more reasons why Maria Theresa didn't permit Maria Amalia to visit Vienna.  To be fair, it seemed like something being discussed over a number of years (4-5 years) so it wasn't an outright rejection of her daughter's request.  The possibility of Maria Amalia intriguing with Maria Anna and gossiping with Maria Elisabeth - both of whom were close to Maria Amalia - was probably more than she could bear.... I understand better her fear - although unjustified -  of having more troubles in Vienna (and she had enough of those, she said). As far as I understood it, Maria Amalia just badly wanted to see her mother and she would return to Parma (there was no reason for her not to). It was Joseph who finally rejected the visit and told his mother to firmly drop the idea (it could only cause trouble, he claimed) and a month later, MT died (not sure if she sent a final rejection to Maria Amalia).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:58:07 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Bravecoeur

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #392 on: November 16, 2015, 03:21:19 AM »
Indeed. Maria Elisabeth's life was not well researched.
Maria Elisabeth does not even seem to have a biography of her own, only a  book that also featured her sisters.
[/quote]
Which book is that ? In German ?

Yes, in German like  Die Tochter Maria Theresias. It has been translated into Spanish, I think.  I am sure there is at least 1 more book but  I can't  recall the title right now.
prinzheinegirl is right, as always. ;) There is no biography of Maria Elisabeth, apart from chapters in books that deal with all sisters or all siblings. There are three published in German:
Charlotte Pangels, Die Kinder Maria-Theresias (1980), the most extensive one, the most balanced one she also gives sources and in my opinion is the only one worth reading.
Friedrich Weißensteiner, Die Töchter Maria Theresias (1994), pretty much the same contents, but shorter and very judgmental
Hanne Egghardt, Maria Theresias Kinder (2010), is even shorter and brings also nothing new (at least not on ME)

Btw. this summer a book (French and German) was published on the Innsbruck 1765 wedding/death which covers many topics about Maria Theresia's family, especially the Lorraine ancestors, the travels of court, the depiction of Maria Theresia's family in the Innsbruck castle, and Leopold as well as Maria Elisabeth too. https://winklerverlag.com/v2351x/index_en.html

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #393 on: November 17, 2015, 04:08:48 AM »
Thank you very much, bravecoeur, for the content summary on the books related to Maria Elisabeth, and for this new publication which also features Maria Elisabeth.  Little by little information is being "unearthed" about her.

I'm unsure whether or not Maria Anna has her own biography while the only one I know of Maria Christina was written in the 19th century and in German. Someone reliable should do a book on each of the three sisters.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:20:12 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Bravecoeur

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #394 on: November 17, 2015, 09:07:30 AM »
You're welcome.Unfortunately I have no overview on English Biographies of this kind, which I am sure exist too?
I'm unsure whether or not Maria Anna has her own biography while the only one I know of Maria Christina was written in the 19th century and in German.
Yes, there is one on Maria Anna from 1910, that was funnily not published in Klagenfurt but in Innsbruck:
Adolf  Innerkofler (ed),  Eine große Tochter Maria Theresias: Erzherzogin Marianna in ihrem Hauptmonument, dem Elisabethinen-Kloster zu Klagenfurt. Jubelgabe zur Feier des 200jährigen Bestehens vom Elisabethinen-Konvent, Innsbruck 1910. The German title can be translated as "A great daughter of Maria Theresia: Archduchess Marianna in her main monument, the Elizabethan convent of Klagenfurt. Jubelee present in celebration of the 200 year anniversary of the Elizabethan convent".

Furthermore not a book  but a contribution that is 110 pages long (!) so half a book ;) documents Maria Anna's 8 years in Klagenfurt: Othmar Rudan, Erzherzogin Maria Anna in Klagenfurt 1781 – 1789. In: Carinthia 1 170 (1980), 185–295.
Now compare this with how little has been written on Maria Elisabeth's 25 years in Innsbruck... I have read neither of these two works, this information is from another volume of the series I posted yesterday, not sure whether it has already been mentioned here. p. 60 https://winklerverlag.com/v1859x/v1859x_lep.htm

Quote from: prinzheinelgirl
Someone reliable should do a book on each of the three sisters.
Definitely a great idea! The problem is a bit, I think, that (court) biography is not such a "sexy" topic in academia, which leaves the area to other writers who mostly recycle existing material but don't look for new sources in the archives (exceptions are Renate Zedinger on Franz I Stephan, Derek Beales on Josef II and certainly a few more).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:38:21 AM by Bravecoeur »

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #395 on: November 20, 2015, 06:53:47 AM »
You're welcome.Unfortunately I have no overview on English Biographies of this kind, which I am sure exist too?

Can not recall any at this moment but my memory isn't perfect. Perhaps the others can help on this.

Yes, there is one on Maria Anna from 1910, that was funnily not published in Klagenfurt but in Innsbruck:
Adolf  Innerkofler (ed),  Eine große Tochter Maria Theresias: Erzherzogin Marianna in ihrem Hauptmonument, dem Elisabethinen-Kloster zu Klagenfurt. Jubelgabe zur Feier des 200jährigen Bestehens vom Elisabethinen-Konvent, Innsbruck 1910. The German title can be translated as "A great daughter of Maria Theresia: Archduchess Marianna in her main monument, the Elizabethan convent of Klagenfurt. Jubelee present in celebration of the 200 year anniversary of the Elizabethan convent".

Furthermore not a book  but a contribution that is 110 pages long (!) so half a book ;) documents Maria Anna's 8 years in Klagenfurt: Othmar Rudan, Erzherzogin Maria Anna in Klagenfurt 1781 – 1789. In: Carinthia 1 170 (1980), 185–295.
Now compare this with how little has been written on Maria Elisabeth's 25 years in Innsbruck... I have read neither of these two works, this information is from another volume of the series I posted yesterday, not sure whether it has already been mentioned here. p. 60 https://winklerverlag.com/v1859x/v1859x_lep.htm

Thanks for this. At least Maria Anna is not being totally ignored. I think she is most intelligent and talented overall among the siblings but is "underrated" due to Maria Christina's "prominence" as the favourite daughter of Maria Theresa as well as Maria Carolina being hailed as the daughter most like MT (did MT really state that?).

I think Maria Elisabeth is also categorized as not interesting enough like Maria Anna - 'princesses at convents' and there were plenty of those at that era.  But they did influence their second homes and Maria Elisabeth was at the forefront in Tyrol (one of the small but nevertheless important Habsburg domains) after Joseph died.

Definitely a great idea! The problem is a bit, I think, that (court) biography is not such a "sexy" topic in academia, which leaves the area to other writers who mostly recycle existing material but don't look for new sources in the archives (exceptions are Renate Zedinger on Franz I Stephan, Derek Beales on Josef II and certainly a few more).

Have not heard of that one of Franz Stephan - thank you for this - but Derek Beales's books on Joseph II are both fantastic.  More than worth their rather expensive price tags... I am rather reserved about (some) independent historians as they not only merely recycle information but also invent their own "facts" (speculation or conjecture is fine but should be stated as such - not presented as facts) . I would rather wait for a long time for works similar to Derek Beales's.

So, as far as the family is concerned, this is the summary as far as biographies are concerned?

Maria Theresa - numerous biographies but nothing as comprehensive as Beales's masterful work on Joseph II
Franz Stephan - with a number of biographies but nothing in English?
Maria Anna - half a book (life in Klangenfurt) + a publication on her convent
Joseph II- numerous biographies
Maria Christina - a few books in German
Maria Elisabeth - none; mentioned in the chronicles of Tyrol
Maria Amalia - 1932 biography in Italian
Leopold - a few biographies in German?
Maria Carolina - early 20th century biographies in English (Acton, Bearne) + a few in German
Ferdinand - ?
Marie Antoinette - countless books
Maximilian - ?
   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 07:18:40 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Bravecoeur

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #396 on: November 29, 2015, 06:48:16 AM »
I think Maria Elisabeth is also categorized as not interesting enough like Maria Anna - 'princesses at convents' and there were plenty of those at that era.  But they did influence their second homes
I totally agree!

I am rather reserved about (some) independent historians as they not only merely recycle information but also invent their own "facts" (speculation or conjecture is fine but should be stated as such - not presented as facts) .
I didn't want to be this harsh so I didn't say it this way - but essentially, again, I totally agree. :)

Have not heard of that one of Franz Stephan - thank you for this
You're welcome. Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.de/Schriftenreihe-oesterreichischen-Gesellschaft-Erforschung-Jahrhunderts/dp/3205781090/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448799788&sr=8-1&keywords=zedinger+franz+lothringen I have not found that it was translated. The author speaks French very well, which helps with this kind of research ;) so she might have published in French too...

I've updated the list:

Maria Theresa - numerous biographies but nothing as comprehensive as Beales's masterful work on Joseph II
Franz Stephan - a few biographies but nothing in English
Maria Anna - half a book (life in Klangenfurt) + a publication on her and her convent
Joseph II - numerous biographies
Maria Christina - a few books in German
Maria Elisabeth - none (apart from articles and notes) + a publication on her convent
Maria Amalia - 1932 biography in Italian, no German biography
Leopold - a few biographies in German*
Maria Carolina - early 20th century biographies in English (Acton, Bearne) + a few in German
Ferdinand - none (apart from articles and notes)**
Marie Antoinette - countless books
Maximilian - two biographies in German***
   
*There are numerous articles and specialised publications on Leopold, and also a few biographies in German, notably the two volumes by Adam Wandruszka (and as he reigned in Tuscany for so long, I am certain there are Italian biographies too but haven't checked):
Adam Wandruszka: Leopold II. Erzherzog von Österreich, Großherzog von Toskana, König von Ungarn und Böhmen, Römischer Kaiser, 2 Bände (Band I: 1747–1780, Band II: 1780–1792), Vienna, Munich 1963 and 1965.
Helga Peham: Leopold II. Herrscher mit weiser Hand. Styria, Graz u. a. 1987

** Have not found any biography as a book (there are certainly the articles in the volumes on MT's children and shorter biographical articles).

*** I checked. There are two German biographies on Maximilian Franz, both by the same author:
Max Braubach: Max Franz von Österreich, letzter Kurfürst und Fürstbischof von Münster. Versuch einer Biographie (etc.), Münster i. W.: Aschendorff, 1925
Max Braubach: Maria Theresias jüngster Sohn Max Franz. Letzter Kurfürst von Köln und Fürstbischof von Münster. Herold, Wien u. a. 1961.
Also there are number of special books on his role in certain political aspects in Münster and Colgne.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #397 on: December 17, 2015, 12:56:22 AM »
Franz Stephan had his own place in Vienna called "Kaiserhaus".  The link...

http://www.kaiserhaus.info/english/history.htm

Thank you to bravecoeur for the lead on this (book on Franz Stephan, which mentioned said palace) and for the wonderful update above.The book's summary mentions that FS amassed riches in only a short time and did not want any of his children to feel poor (did he feel poor at any point?).  I remember reading Maria Theresa was displeased/in despair that he didn't leave any big bequests to the other children and Joseph was the sole heir (But the family trust fund FS established should have taken care of keeping them in style with their rank).  MT was counting on the bequests. The summary of the book also states that FS is misjudged.

I see that Archduke Ferdinand is also neglected in terms of a biography but he seemed to have been appreciated by the people of Milan, nevertheless....
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:18:24 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #398 on: May 13, 2017, 03:04:00 PM »
Today, 13th. May 2017, marks 300 years since the birth of Empress Maria Theresia!

Offline Missing

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #399 on: June 23, 2017, 08:35:09 AM »
[image] [image] why do i always got these whenever i tried to post a photo?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 08:37:19 AM by Missing »

Offline Missing

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #400 on: June 23, 2017, 09:00:50 AM »
Höfische Porträtkultur: Die Bildnissammlung der österreichischen Erzherzogin Maria Anna (1738-1789)
check out this book, though i didnt understand it but i has some good portrait of some descendant of MT , however it had a limited preview only in google book :(
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 09:02:28 AM by Missing »

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #401 on: June 23, 2017, 10:21:22 AM »
Because you can't upload photos directly here. You have to put it up on a different server, such as shutterfly or snapfish and then embed the code from there between the [img] tags, not [image]
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 03:22:19 PM by Forum Admin »