Author Topic: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family  (Read 206735 times)

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Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2007, 10:20:37 AM »
Exactly.  I also understand that Maria Theresa fought hard to marry her husband (with whom she was very much in love) inspite of parental opposition.  To then give her children lectures on duty and obligation must have struck them as somewhat hypocritical, particularly for Amalia who couldn't marry the man she was in love with, and to Joseph who was devastated by the death of his first wife and would have wanted time to grieve for her rather than being rushed into another marriage as fast as possible.


Offline CountessKate

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2007, 03:13:07 PM »
There is a Project Gutenburg book: Memoirs of the Courts of Louis XV and XVI. Being secret memoirs of Madame Du Hausset, lady's maid to Madame de Pompadour, and of the Princess Lamballe — Volume 7 (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3882).  This in fact seems to have nothing to do with Madame du Hausset or Madame de Pompadour, but rather with the Princesse de Lamballe and includes an account of Marie Antoinette's sending the author (apparently a young Englishwoman) to "Tell my sisters the state of Paris.  Inform them of our cruel situation.  Describe the riots and convulsions you have seen.  Above all, assure them how dear they are to me, and how much I love them."  When she arrived in Parma, "I delivered Her Majesty's letter [to Maria Amalia].  Before she opened it, she exclaimed, "'O Dio!  tutto e perduto e troppo tardi'!  Oh, God!  all is lost, it is too late!"  I then gave her the cipher and the key.  In a few minutes I enabled her to decipher the letter.  On getting through it, she again exclaimed, "'E tutto inutile'!  it is entirely useless!  I am afraid they are all lost.  I am sorry you are so situated as not to allow of your remaining here to rest from your fatigue.  Whenever you come to Parma, I shall be glad to see you." She then took out her pocket handkerchief, shed a few tears, and said that, as circumstances were now so totally changed, to answer the letter might only commit her, her sister, and myself; but that if affairs took the turn she wished, no doubt, her sister would write again.  She then mounted her horse, and wished me a good journey; and I took leave, and set off for Rome. I must confess that the conduct of the Duchess of Parma appeared to me rather cold, if not unfeeling.  Perhaps she was afraid of showing too much emotion, and wished to encourage the idea that Princesses ought not to give way to sensibility, like common mortals..............................................
But how different was the conduct of the Queen of Naples!  She kissed the letter: she bathed it with her tears!  Scarcely could she allow herself time to decipher it.  At every sentence she exclaimed, "Oh, my dear, oh, my adored sister!  What will become of her!  My brothers are now both no more!  Surely, she will soon be liberated!"  Then, turning suddenly to me, she asked with eagerness, "Do you not think she will?  Oh, Marie, Marie!  why did she not fly to Vienna?  Why did she not come to me instead of writing?  Tell me, for God's sake, all you know!"(and so on and on and on).

Whether these are genuine memoires or not, is hard to tell.  They certainly have a highly charged romantic air about them, but that was in keeping with the sensibility of the times, and read like Fanny Burney or other late eighteenth century writers.  However, the references to the Duchess of Parma and the Queen of Naples are interesting and suggest that whoever wrote them knew of their degrees of intimacy with Marie Antoinette and how they reacted (or might have reacted) to the bad news from Paris.  Maria Amalia with expressions of concern but no real feeling; Maria Carolina with a greater degree of grief and sensibility.

Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2007, 08:23:18 AM »
There is a Project Gutenburg book: Memoirs of the Courts of Louis XV and XVI. Being secret memoirs of Madame Du Hausset, lady's maid to Madame de Pompadour, and of the Princess Lamballe — Volume 7 (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3882).  This in fact seems to have nothing to do with Madame du Hausset or Madame de Pompadour, but rather with the Princesse de Lamballe and includes an account of Marie Antoinette's sending the author (apparently a young Englishwoman) to "Tell my sisters the state of Paris.  Inform them of our cruel situation.  Describe the riots and convulsions you have seen.  Above all, assure them how dear they are to me, and how much I love them."  When she arrived in Parma, "I delivered Her Majesty's letter [to Maria Amalia].  Before she opened it, she exclaimed, "'O Dio!  tutto e perduto e troppo tardi'!  Oh, God!  all is lost, it is too late!"  I then gave her the cipher and the key.  In a few minutes I enabled her to decipher the letter.  On getting through it, she again exclaimed, "'E tutto inutile'!  it is entirely useless!  I am afraid they are all lost.  I am sorry you are so situated as not to allow of your remaining here to rest from your fatigue.  Whenever you come to Parma, I shall be glad to see you." She then took out her pocket handkerchief, shed a few tears, and said that, as circumstances were now so totally changed, to answer the letter might only commit her, her sister, and myself; but that if affairs took the turn she wished, no doubt, her sister would write again.  She then mounted her horse, and wished me a good journey; and I took leave, and set off for Rome. I must confess that the conduct of the Duchess of Parma appeared to me rather cold, if not unfeeling.  Perhaps she was afraid of showing too much emotion, and wished to encourage the idea that Princesses ought not to give way to sensibility, like common mortals..............................................
But how different was the conduct of the Queen of Naples!  She kissed the letter: she bathed it with her tears!  Scarcely could she allow herself time to decipher it.  At every sentence she exclaimed, "Oh, my dear, oh, my adored sister!  What will become of her!  My brothers are now both no more!  Surely, she will soon be liberated!"  Then, turning suddenly to me, she asked with eagerness, "Do you not think she will?  Oh, Marie, Marie!  why did she not fly to Vienna?  Why did she not come to me instead of writing?  Tell me, for God's sake, all you know!"(and so on and on and on).

Whether these are genuine memoires or not, is hard to tell.  They certainly have a highly charged romantic air about them, but that was in keeping with the sensibility of the times, and read like Fanny Burney or other late eighteenth century writers.  However, the references to the Duchess of Parma and the Queen of Naples are interesting and suggest that whoever wrote them knew of their degrees of intimacy with Marie Antoinette and how they reacted (or might have reacted) to the bad news from Paris.  Maria Amalia with expressions of concern but no real feeling; Maria Carolina with a greater degree of grief and sensibility.


What an interesting post!  I think the memoirs could quite possibly be true.  As you said, the sensibilities of the time did tend towards the highly romantic.

The only thing I'd question is the suggestion that Amalia's reaction was a cold one.  Bearing in mind that she probably didn't know the woman who had brought her the letter she may have felt the need to keep her emotions under control in front of a stranger.  The writer doesn't know how many more tears Amalia may have shed when she was alone.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2007, 10:15:39 AM »
Apart from Maria Carolina and Marie Antoinette (I know it should be Maria Antonia but it just seems wrong) none of the siblings seemed particularly close to one another.  Leopold wrote nasty things about Joseph in his diary, none of them cared for Maria Christina, Maria Christina warned Isabel of Parma that Marianne would try to bully her by taking precedence over her, Joseph didn't get on with Marianne and Maria Elizabeth, none of them tried to communicate with Maria Amalia when she was in disgrace....................not a really happy family.  The younger ones seemed a bit calmer - I seem to recall Marie Antoinette was pleased to see Maximillian, though the courtiers at Versailles thought him a bit of an oaf. 

Marie Antoinette's letters to her mother are full of rather sanctimonious expressions of displeasure about Maria Amalia in 1772 and 1773, when the break between Maria Amalia and Maria Theresa and Louis XV was complete, such as "how sorry I am about the Infanta: it is very surprising that she made no better use of all your good advice, and of all you said to her through Rosenberg" and "We must hope that if my dear Mama is kind enough to start writing to the Infanta again, she will settle down and admit that she was wrong" and finally, "The reconciliation with Parma is complete; it will be a great happiness if it lasts; I am sorry that my sister is not sufficiently aware of it to have written to you about it right away; it can only be due to the shame and embarrassment she feels......."  I say sanctimonious because Marie Antoinette was busy at the same time putting her own spin on her behaviour which equally disregarded her mother's good advice, such as "As for the young Du Barry, I am sorry that my dear Mama should not be pleased with me; if she would only realise that the King's good mood was sincere, and that the only times he wants one to be polite to then is when that cabal is tormenting him" (which Marie Antoinette knew was untrue, and Maria Theresa knew was untrue also, as of course Mercy-Argenteau kept her completely in the picture about her daughter's doings).  Maria Amalia must have been useful to enable Marie Antoinette to show that she knew how to be respectful to her mother, and even if she didn't do quite what her mother wanted her to do, well, Maria Amalia was much, much worse.

Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2007, 08:39:36 AM »
I think the fact that Maria Theresa sent Amalia 23(!) strict rules of behavior after she was married explains quite clearly why the relationship between the two was so rocky!  Amalia was clearly a strong personality.  She was also in her early twenties when she got married (considerably older than both Caroline and Antoinette and indeed most royal princesses) and yet her mother was still trying to run her life - or so it must have seemed.

Both Amalia and Caroline put me in mind of a great quote from the film Dangerous Liaisons.  The Marquise de Merteuil says to the innocent Cecile "When it comes to marriage one man is as good as the next and even the least accomodating is a lot less bother than a mother"!!!  Though Caroline appears to have behaved far more diplomatically towards her mother, they were both strong willed girls and after the initial transition to a new country probably felt glad to have swapped a totally controlling mother for weak willed husbands that they themselves could control.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2007, 08:55:20 PM »
Antonia was smart enough to rebel privately to avoid confrontation with her mother, and also knew how to charm her when she was found out. Amalia was the "wild child".  ;)

Offline ivanushka

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2007, 11:45:28 AM »
That's right.  I think that in their dealings with their mother, Antoinette did have her famous charm to rely on (as well as being the baby of the family as far as the girls went) and Caroline, though more assertive, was extremely intelligent and probably worked out how best to handle her mother to avoid conflict and bad feeling as far as possible. 

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2008, 09:29:07 AM »
I would be very interested to know exactly what Maria Annas' disability was??

She looks quite striking here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduchess_Maria_Anna_of_Austria_%281738-1789%29
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Offline Mari

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2008, 05:47:48 AM »
On the Archduchess Maria Anna of Austria I found two links with a little bit more information:

The Abbey was founded by Empress Maria Theresia in 1755, from 1766 the Abbess enjoyed princely ecclesiastical rank (fürstliche geistliche würde), only temporal duties and a high income, in 1791 the right to crown the Queens of Bohemia was transferred to her. The position of Princess-Abbess of the Chapter was the second highest non-imperial office after the Chancellor.

1766-81 Princess-Abbess Maria Anna von Habsburg-Lothringen
The Abbey was founded by her mother, Empress Maria Theresia in 1755. In 1781 she resigned and moved to Klagenfurt where she lived close to the he Elizabethan Chapter the rest of her life. She lived (1738-89)
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/czech_eccleastical.htm  Worldwide Guide to Women in Leadership
Czech Eccleastical Establishments Female Leaders

also in the link below about 15 from the bottom there is a picture of Maria Anna in later years but I have found nothing about her disability.

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower1740.htm

Offline beladona

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2008, 02:42:15 PM »
I would be very interested to know exactly what Maria Annas' disability was??

She looks quite striking here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduchess_Maria_Anna_of_Austria_%281738-1789%29

Brigitt Hamann writes that Maria Anna from 1757 suffered from a disease, which made her slowly physically deformed - in the end she has a hump...

Offline Mari

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2008, 03:35:13 AM »
It sounds like Osteoporosis which is a weakening of the bones.   I would still like to see a picture of Marie Elizabeth after the small pox if anyone has a ink or can scan one! At least She didn't let it ruin her life. Apparently her Personality carried her through!

 
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1767-1805/08 Royal Abbess Maria Elisabeth von Habsburg-Lothringen of the Royal Chapter in Innsbruck (Austria-Hungary)

The chapter was founded by her mother, Empress Maria Theresia of Austria-Hungary with the purpose of praying for her father Emperor Franz I Stefan, who died the same year. She had been hit by smallpox in 1767 and she became Abbess of the Worldly Chapter for noble ladies. She became the centre of the town-life because of her extrovert personality. In 1805 she fled the Napoleonic troops and three years later the convent was dissolved by Bavaria. She lived (1743-1808).
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http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/czech_eccleastical.htm 

Offline darrah

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2008, 08:18:53 AM »
hi can any give more info about Johanna Gabriela she's my fave archduchess
what kind of character does she have and  how did she died
what kind of relation did she have with her siblings
how old was she when she was betrothed to ferdinand?
 
and pics of her.....
 
and more info about josepha too

pls.pls.pls...

thanks a lot

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2008, 01:45:43 AM »
It sounds like Osteoporosis which is a weakening of the bones.   I would still like to see a picture of Marie Elizabeth after the small pox if anyone has a ink or can scan one! At least She didn't let it ruin her life. Apparently her Personality carried her through!

 

Osteoporosis really takes hold in later life though and is very common. I can't imagine that was her "disability" It must have been a disorder that affected Marie Ann early on for it to effect her marriage prospects. Severe arthritis possibily...
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Offline Mari

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2008, 02:25:28 AM »
Yes, Arthritis that's a good possibility. Plugging it in.... here is what I got for possible causes...

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Infection, lack of exercise, dehydration, stress and poor diet and posture all cause accumulative damage to joints causing them to swell thicken 'remodel'and stiffen. This causes swelling pain and discomfort. This symptom is one of a number of signs of arthritis.

severe "hump" in the back is caused by compression fractures in the vertebrae (the bones in the spine) often attributed to osteoporosis, a disease in which the bones become very brittle. The hump comes about when the vertebrae collapse in or slip forward on one another.

One other answer can be Ankylosing Spondylitis (Marie Strumpell disease).
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Offline Mari

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Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2008, 03:15:15 PM »
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hi can any give more info about Johanna Gabriela she's my fave archduchess
Quote

Maria Johanna died of smallpox at the age of 12. She was buried in the Imperial Crypt, Vienna, Austria.

 Her younger sister Archduchess Maria Josepha (1751-1767) also died of smallpox.
 http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/big/marie31.jpg    Maria Josepha at eight on the Marie Antoinette site I found.

 It also appears that Maria Josepha liked to perform in Opera's with her Sisters.
 
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For a long time nobody knew what these paintings represented. It was thanks to Federal President Dr. Adolf Schärf that the forgotten meaning of the pictures was rediscovered. On close scrutiny Dr. Schärf found out that the two pictures were an account of one and the same opera performance. The group of four young ladies in the centre of the left picture can also be seen on the stage depicted on the right-hand one. When Dr. Schärf realised that behind the four mythological figures the stage setting shows Pegasus, his hoofs striking a jagged rock giving rise to the spring Hippocrene, he started to research old opera librettos and came to be convinced that the pictures represented a performance of the opera „Il Parnasso confuso“ by Christoph Willibald Gluck. The libretto was written by Pietro Antonio Metastasio, court poet to Charles VI and Maria Theresa.

Further research confirmed the interpretation given by the Federal President.

It was on the day following the wedding of Crown Prince Joseph, subsequently the Emperor Joseph II, and his second wife, Maria Josepha of Bavaria, which took place at Schönbrunn Palace on January 23, 1765, that the opera „Il Parnasso confuso“ was performed in the so-called „Große Anticamera“ (large room) of Schönbrunn specially adapted as a theatre. The cast included four of Maria Theresa's daughters, the Archduchesses Amalia, appearing as Apollo, Elisabeth, as the Muse Melpomene, Josepha, as Euterpe and Charlotte, as Erato. Their - and the bridegroom's - brother, Archduke Leopold, who was later to become the Emperor Leopold II, conducted the orchestra from the harpsichord.
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     link includes Paintings

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hofburg.at/rte/upload/rundgang_pics/miniaturen1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hofburg.at/show_content2.php%3Fs2id%3D42%26language%3Den&h=399&w=400&sz=39&hl=en&start=16&sig2=DCPPq1DnP9uDC-zNijzshQ&um=1&tbnid=1uzRkWyedaQfRM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=124&ei=mqIkSLrhK4aWigHSrdTtCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bchildren%2Bof%2BMaria%2BTheresa%2Bof%2BAustria%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 03:18:36 PM by Mari »