Author Topic: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family  (Read 245885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #345 on: January 27, 2015, 07:02:34 AM »
Thank you very much, CountessKate, for the detailed information/explanation on Louis XV and his daughters.  I understand their relationship(s) much better now.

As for Maria Theresa, perhaps her distrust of her children (according to Isabella of Parma) added to the perceived inattention to both Maria Anna and Maria Elisabeth.  Also, the only one she didn't seem to constantly criticise was Mimi and perhaps being in Vienna together gave her more opportunities to criticise the two and perhaps largely ignore them (rather than those far away although her spies certainly gave partial/inaccurate information on those abroad). MT was very generous to Maria Anna though, at least in terms of money, settling on her an annual allowance that was four times more (80,000 florins rather than the usual 20,000 for the non-heirs). If I'm not mistaken, that was not from the money left by Franz Stephan.  

Anyway, here is a link of a group portrait of Franz Stephan, MT and Joseph (as a young child), which I don't think is posted before:

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=2910
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 07:13:58 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #346 on: February 08, 2015, 11:26:56 AM »
I don't know why Maria Elizabeth was ignored. She was the beauty in the family and yet no husband was found for her. Her younger sisters were married off rather young. So I really don't understand MT in her dynastic plans. Historians credit her for the dynastic marriage with all branches of the Bourbons (Parma, France, Naples & Spain (Leopold's wife was a Spanish Infanta, daughter Charles III of Spain), but failed with Maria Elisabeth...

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #347 on: February 09, 2015, 07:35:41 AM »
I think it has something to do with Franz Stephan and the timing of his death.  Maria Anna was obviously out of the running.  The next one was Mimi, who was strongly resisting her  father's plan re: the Duke of Chablais. FS was strongly for it and to be honest, I don't know how Maria Theresa could've overruled him on this - considering he was the head of the family, not her. Most likely, the plan was to get Mimi settled first before Maria Elisabeth.  Maria Josepha's match was already decided with Ferdinand of Naples by 1765.  FS was strongly against the match with France so that leaves Maria Elisabeth (who was also said to be a "back-up" candidate for Benedetto of Savoy), Maria Amalia, Maria Carolina and Maria Antonia with no firm matches.  His death "cleared" the way for Mimi to marry her Albert and MT to formally discuss Marie Antoinette's match with the future Louis XVI (negotiations started only in 1766).  That leaves Maria Elisabeth, Maria  Amalia and Maria Carolina (before MJ died). Benedetto was still keen on a match and I don't understand the reason that there was no money for Maria Elisabeth to marry her cousin.  MT could've split Mimi's extremely generous dowry of 4,000,000 florins (after all she got the Duchy of Teschen). It could also be a way of honoring the last wishes of FS.  She could've given a post to  Maria Elisabeth and Benedetto too (Archduke Maximilian was to be Governor of Hungary before the post in Cologne was won for him so the centralisation policy was not strongly enforced - it appeared rather selective).  Ferdinand of Parma's purported match with Beatrice d'Este was clearly just wishful thinking and an unfounded dream of the minister Du Tillot:  her grandfather and father were both very much pro-Austria and Francesco III of Modena served as Governor of Milan; also, Beatrice was first engaged to Leopold at age one, the year Ferdinand of Parma was born (1751). I don't know about the Orleans princess for Parma but Charles III of Spain seemed keen on cementing Spain's relationship with Austria and he seemed to have carried more weight on this matter as Parma was a branch of Bourbon-Spain, not Bourbon-France. The other Bourbon marriages were finalized after FS died.

I can  see why Maria Elisabeth, married or not, was  bitter about not having an establishment of her own: MT spent a fortune on palaces for other members of the family and gave them significant posts. But there seemed  nothing at all for her.   Even Maria Anna's home in Klagenfurt was a palace (known now as the Episcopal Palace) built by MT for her (1769-1776). ME, of course, did not need a palace for there was already one in Innsbruck (assuming she was to stay there eventually; I think MT wanted them to stay in Vienna after her death). However, it did seem that MT didn't give her much thought or showed her special attention through such things.

Oh, an earlier post on their allowances: younger sons got 40,000 florins not 20,000 so Maria Anna got double (later reduced when she went to Klagenfurt).  I've read that ME's allowance in Innsbruck was 50,000 florins.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:01:29 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #348 on: February 15, 2015, 10:34:03 PM »
That is sad that MT ignored her once marketable daughter entirely. Maria Elisabeth was proud of her beauty and said Louis XV & the Polish King (ex-boyfriend of Catherine The Great) were for her. She could have made a nice Queen of Poland, pretty sure Catherine nixed the possibility for her. Although beautiful, she did not seem to have the spirit of Maria Amalia or Charlotte (Maria Carolina).

Offline Превед

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #349 on: February 16, 2015, 04:35:39 PM »
She could have made a nice Queen of Poland, pretty sure Catherine nixed the possibility for her.

Perhaps more out of the political calculation that it would be pretty cumbersome to have Maria Theresa's daughter and Joseph II's sister as Queen of Poland if they were to divide her kingdom between them, don't you think?
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #350 on: February 17, 2015, 05:20:46 AM »
I believe Maria Theresa loved all her children, maternal love was there. However, she also liked and disliked them (i.e. favourites and non-favourites) and that showed in her actions and favours. MT assured Maximilian in a 1774 letter that although he was the youngest in the family and not born for ruling, they have made provisions for an adequate position for him. That he can expect not much responsibilities and enjoy life while being generously provided for. It was indeed very generous, younger children were not entitled to such and could not expect them. Take Maria Carolina's case too. Unflattering reports about her were not welcome in Vienna while such reports Maria Amalia and Marie Antoinette were almost always believed and welcomed.

Back to Maria Elisabeth, I think she was happier in Innsbruck. She was described as depressed and cranky in Vienna but seemed lively in her other home. That way, she was also free and while Joseph could scold her still, it wasn't the same as being at his mercy 24/7 or as Leopold claimed, being badly treated by their mother. All in all, a much better place for her. Maria Amalia was on the same situation - waiting for a special favour or sign although I can think of at least one situation where Joseph interfered. Not sure if she got any special favours. But at least MT seemed to love/like her grandchildren in Parma.

Re: Queen of Poland for ME, unsure when the plan to partition Poland was first thought of. I think it took years to do it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 05:36:10 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #351 on: February 17, 2015, 07:42:25 AM »
The exact words from Empress Maria Theresa to Archduke Max in 1774 assuring him of a good future; I believe the post in Cologne was not yet thought of and the posts in Hungary and in the Teutonic Knights were referred to:

"You are the youngest of my children and the eighth archduke. As thus, you  have the (great) good fortune not to be destined for (a) ruling office, your life will be all the more happy and you will have less responsibility to bear. But your station obliges you to take even greater care of all that pertains to your person. We have made provision for you to have an honourable and adequate position in life."

I don't know what she meant by the "eight" archduke; maybe it is just a mistake or mistranslation. At any rate, it appeared that much thought was given to his future. Does not sound like the "typical" 40,000 florins/year archduke who was only to serve the Emperor all his life.  

I should also correct the post above re: Maria Amalia waiting for favours. I meant the time after her wedding and the troubles with her mother thereafter. MT did show her special attention upon her marriage by wanting to grant her and her husband a pension from Austria but Joseph did not agree. So it was said that she lobbied for France and Spain to increase their pensions to Parma, which is, of course, was a very nice gesture (and needed by her spendthrift daughter).

Of course, we can't know all their actions. But Maria Elisabeth's obvious displeasure/tantrum on being the only one left out in the family (Maria Anna had a "downgraded" post but it was obviously her choice, not her mother's) does point out that either nothing was done for her or no serious efforts were made.

As for Vienna not welcoming unfavourable reports on Maria Carolina in Naples, said reports came from the minister Kaunitz's daughter in law who was the wife of the Austrian ambassador in Naples. Apparently, Joseph II"s glowing reports on his sister in 1769 was also more for "public relations" and the spy-ambassador's wife could not condone MC's conduct, which coming from an inner circle member and one who is loyal to Austria, speaks volumes of MC's bad behaviour. But MC was not be scolded severely (or punished) like Marie Antoinette or Maria Amalia...such reports were unwelcome (although MT also complained that they came infrequently, what a contradiction).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:07:12 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline CountessKate

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #352 on: February 17, 2015, 12:26:37 PM »
Quote
I don't know what she meant by the "eight" archduke; maybe it is just a mistake or mistranslation.

She may have been factoring in some of Leopold's sons, ahead of Max Franz in the succession of course, who in 1779 were proposed by their father a Prince Bishop of Cologne.  The original idea of Max Franz as eventual governor of Hungary, with a military career, started with his coadjutorship of the Teutonic Order to Karl Alexander of Lorraine as Grand Master.  Although the Teutonic Order prohibited Max Franz from marrying, it did not commit him to an ecclesiastical role which both Maria Theresa and Joseph opposed.  Max Franz fell ill with a disease of the knees in 1778 and thereafter his health made him unfit for military service including the governorship of Hungary. Maria Theresa nevertheless resisted having him created a prince-bishop until Leopold's request of the Cologne principality for one of his sons made her think again, as she thought them far too young.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #353 on: February 18, 2015, 05:39:30 AM »
She may have been factoring in some of Leopold's sons, ahead of Max Franz in the succession of course, who in 1779 were proposed by their father a Prince Bishop.

You are correct, thank you. I thought of her sons only and counting Leopold'sons alive by 1774 would indeed make Max the 8th archduke. Leopold thought way ahead but that was only practical since he had 5 sons by then and were likely to have more. Securing the post in Cologne for Max was a triumph for Austria. I dont think MT did wrong in this and most likely Maria Elisabeth wasn't expecting a very high level post like Max's but one that could afford her some semblance of an honourable and adequate position. She also cried about being stuck in Vienna with Joseph, not a pleasant person nor sympathetic to her. Can't understand why she wasn't given a  "token" post in any of their lands; after all, Tuscany, Hungary, Milan, and the Austrian Netherlands were "ruled" her siblings/uncle under Vienna's directions. Setting up something like that for her in Tyrol, a princely county, for instance -aside from abbess duties - would not have been too much. That is why I like Leopold - he tried to do the right things for the non-favourites like ME and Maria Amalia. He seemed fine with Maria Anna too, naming his second daughter/fourth child after her and getting her as the godmother (when as a rule he mostly got "senior" - by rank or age - relatives/family members as godparents for his children)... not as cold as his mother blamed him to be.

As for the Kaunitz daughter in law who criticised Maria Carolina in Naples, she was even a distant relative through their Oettingen ties,  sister of the famous Eleonore of Liechenstein, so very much included in the family's inner circles.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 06:08:39 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #354 on: February 19, 2015, 02:20:45 AM »
Maria Anna is the subject of a study started in July 2013:

Austrian Portraiture in the 18th century. The collection of the Elisabethinen convent in Klagenfurt.

The project aims to investigate approximately 135 portraits from the collection of the Elisabethinen convent in Klagenfurt bequeathed by the Austrian archduchess Maria Anna (1738-1789). The convolute consists of oil paintings and pastels showing Habsburg aristocrats and contemporary clerics, including an ancestral gallery as well as a depiction of Maria Theresia and Franz Stephan in carnival costumes. An extraordinary density of children’s portraits further characterizes the collection.
 
The project’s main objectives are a contextualization of the artworks within regional and transregional 18th-century art production and distribution, an attribution to artists and workshops, and a reconstruction of the history of the collection before and after the accession of Maria Anna’s estate by the Elisabethinen convent after her death in 1789. The role of the archduchess herself will be also considered from a feminist perspective, as she acted not only as collector but also as a well-recognized engraver and painter.


The link and full article: http://www.dieangewandte.at/jart/prj3/angewandte/main.jart?rel=en&reserve-mode=active&content-id=1371642582530&aktuelles_id=1376294158068

Her natural history collection was bequeathed to her major domo Count Joseph Enzenberg, who shared her passion for the same, but the items were later sold.  The link to the article that mentions it: http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/148635

Also, she had a summer home at Klagenfurt called Schloss Annabischl (not named after her but after the wife of the first owner). It is small, just like her sisters' pleasure homes (Marie Antoinette's Petit Trianon, Maria Amalia's Casino dei Boschi).

Maria Anna's funeral is summarized by an abstract made by Angelina Pötschner: http://www.bda.at/text/136/1091/11315/#pötschner

Maria Theresa's, Maria Anna's and Maria Elisabeth's portraits are displayed at Austria's Federal Chancellery-Stone Room: https://www.bka.gv.at/site/3866/default.aspx . They describe Maria Anna as  "an archduchess with an impressive biography."
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:48:59 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #355 on: February 19, 2015, 03:06:28 AM »
Accprding to Worldwide Guide To Women in Leadership:

"In Bohemia there were 4 cases of a female "office-nobility" Amtsadels, who were all raised to the position of Princess of the Realm (Fürstenstand), The Abbess of St. Georg at the  Hradschin in Prauge (Äbtissin zu St. Georg auf dem Hradschin zu Prag), the Abbess of the Free Wordly Chapter for Noble Ladies of the Holy Angels in the New Town of Prague (Äbtissin des freiweltlich adeligen Damenstifts zu den Heiligen Engeln auf der Neustadt in Prag), the Abbess of the Theresian Royal and Imperial Ladies Chapter of the Castle of Prague (Äbtissin des k.k. Theresianischen adeligen Damenstifts ob dem Prager Schlosse) and The Prioress of the Duchal Savoyian Ladies' Chapter in Vienna (Oberin des Herzoglich Savoyschen Damenstiftes in Wien)

The Theresianian Noble Chapter at the Hradschin in Prague (The Theresian Royal and Imperial Ladies Chapter of the Castle of Prague (Äbtissin des k.k. Theresianischen adeligen Damenstifts ob dem Prager Schlosses - Äbtissin des Prager Hradschin Convents - Äbtissin des Hradschin) (Secular Abbess). Other versions of the name are: Adelichen Damenstiftes auf dem Prager Hradschin/Theresianische Anstalt für adelige Frauen in Prag/The k.k. Theresianische adelige Damenstift at the Prague Hradschin,

The Abbey was founded by Empress Maria Theresia in 1755, from 1766 the Abbess enjoyed princely ecclesiastical rank (fürstliche geistliche würde), only temporal duties and a high income, in 1791 the right to crown the Queens of Bohemia was transferred to her. The position of Princess-Abbess of the Chapter was the second highest non-imperial office after the Chancellor."

So, it appears that the princely ecclesiastical rank was made with Maria Anna in mind.  Not sure when it was made the second highest non-imperial office after the Chancellor (that doesn't sound like Joseph's work and the post was vacant for nine years after Maria Anna resigned) but that made it even more prestigious. Maria Anna had no reason to complain about her establishment (not that I read she ever did and it certainly befits her rank as the eldest of the surviving imperial children). It was also a post that was reserved only for archduchesses (after her, in 1790, was Leopold's second daughter and her goddaughter, Archduchess Maria Anna, who had the privilege of crowning her mother Maria Luisa as Queen of Bohemia).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 03:31:37 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #356 on: February 19, 2015, 03:40:00 AM »
Although beautiful, she did not seem to have the spirit of Maria Amalia or Charlotte (Maria Carolina).

Maria Elisabeth was, in general, lively. She appeared to have regained her gaiety/spirits once in Innsbruck. She was brave and rallied the people of Tyrol during the Napoleonic years. I also read that her nephews (Leopold's sons, even Franz who was the emperor) were not spared her "sharp" tongue.  I'm just starting to learn more about, though. In what way(s) was she different from her sisters?

Also, to correct the post earlier, Leopold's daughter Maria Anna became Princess-Abbess in Prague in 1791 and the post in Prague was vacant for 10, not 9, years.  
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 03:51:42 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #357 on: February 19, 2015, 11:15:04 PM »
Yes. Although Maria Elisaberth never found one she liked to marry like Mimi did or Amalia tried.

Offline prinzheinelgirl

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #358 on: February 21, 2015, 04:46:44 AM »
Mimi first wanted to marry a prince of Wurttemberg. Amalia's first choice of a prince - by the way, Karl of Zweibrucken was certainly not a penniless prince as most assumed, Frederick Michael  left a very considerable fortune to his family (it was said that he managed his various revenues very well) - was rejected but then she was rather lucky the second time around in the sense that she did love - and not only out of duty -  her husband (despite their differences). As for  Maria Elisabeth, she seemed to have a crush on Charles-Joseph, Prince de Ligne but he was already married when she was 12 years old and I'm not sure if a Prince de Ligne would rank high enough for the imperial family  even if unmarried (that information on the Prince de Ligne was mentioned earlier in this thread but may have been deleted). Who knows, she may have been lucky the second time around like her two sisters?  Her private life is not very well researched.  

Also, on Maria Elisabeth's last years, she lived in Linz at the Khevenhüller mansion (Freihaus Khevenhüller, Alstadt 30) and it was a building with modern amenities like plumbing and an elevator. She still enjoyed going to the theatre and would often go to the newly-built one in town. She suffered the least among her sisters in those hard, unhappy years (French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars).

In addition to what was discussed re: Maximilian Franz's establishment, Maria Theresa also wanted to transfer Franz's Stephan's estates in Holitsch, Sassin, Göding and Eckartsau to him - provided that Joseph agreed. But I don't know if he did.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 05:10:47 AM by prinzheinelgirl »
kindness is the magic elixir of love

Offline CountessKate

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1085
    • View Profile
Re: Empress Maria Theresa and her large family
« Reply #359 on: February 21, 2015, 12:15:27 PM »
Quote
re: Maximilian Franz's establishment, Maria Theresa also wanted to transfer Franz's Stephan's estates in Holitsch, Sassin, Göding and Eckartsau to him - provided that Joseph agreed. But I don't know if he did.

Under Maria Theresa's will, Max Franz was allowed the use and the income of Franz Stephan's 4 estates in addition to his generous income as Coadjutor and later grand master of the Teutonic Order, until he received the revenues of the Archbishopric of Cologne and the Bishopric of Münster (he did not take up these positions until 1784).  However, Joseph made him renounce his claim to these estates and sent him off to the headquarters of the Teutonic Order apparently in order to have funds to meet other provisions of Maria Theresa's will and to recoup some of the 1 million florins spent on the elections for Cologne and Münster.  Later however, it appears Max Franz sometimes joined him at the much reduced court in Vienna which was now very masculine and mean, even more than that of Prussia apparently.  Max Franz does not appear to have borne Joseph any ill-will for this behaviour - he certainly didn't hurt for money - but Joseph's other actions relating to the terms of the will annoyed other beneficiaries, particularly Leopold and Maria Christina.  In fairness to Joseph, he appeared to feel that he and Maria Theresa had jointly arranged the disposition of the imperial private fortune in 1765 on the death of Franz Stefan, and Maria Theresa's own will was a variation of a contract to which he had not agreed.