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Offline AGRBear

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AA, Timeline for
« on: May 03, 2005, 10:23:24 AM »
What do we know about AA which would give us a timeline?  I am not referring to her stories which link her to being GD Anastasia.

This thread is just for AA and not to be conected to FS's timeline.

>>9:00 PM, 18 Feb 1920
    The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin.  She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse

Can we discover anything about AA in various records which would tell us anything about AA before 18 Feb 1920?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2005, 10:57:05 AM »
Quote
ANASTASIA, THE LOST PRINCESS by James B. Lovell p. 75:

30 March 1920 at Dalldorf Asylum

"...she underwent her first physical examination for which a record exists.  Her weight was recorded at one hundred ten pounds and her height at five-feet two-inches."

AGRBear


Her body, Lovell continued to tell us on p. 75: "was covered wih scars and lacerations.  A prolonged examination reveal that she was not a virgin."

p. 75
17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2005, 01:04:22 PM »
AA claimed she had a child.  A boy who was carried to full term.  The child she said was born in Budapest and then sent away to a orphanage.

Since it's proven through DNA that she wasn't GD Anastasia and there is no need to try and have the child born in Rumania, then when would she have had the child?

Had to have been nine months before she jumped into the canal or earlier?

Let's say the child was born in April or May of 1919.  AA could have been suffering from "the baby blues" or deep depression from giving birth or having given the baby away.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2005, 06:04:37 PM »
It seems no one can tell us very much about AA before she jumped into the canal.

She was young.
She seemed depresssed.
She had scars.
The doctors called her Mrs. Unknown instead of Miss Unknown.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 03:38:01 PM »
I have a bear-esque theory for you, bear. How about this: what if FS's baby was actually a girl, and her family adopted her?This sometimes did happen to cover up for illegitimate babies in the old days.  What if this was Margarithe, Karl Maucher's mother? That way, the DNA would have matched even if Gertrude was only a half sister (though I still don't believe the half sister theory myself)

How old was Margarithe? Could she possibly be the right age to have been FS's missing child?

Offline Denise

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 03:40:33 PM »
Quote
I have a bear-esque theory for you, bear. How about this: what if FS's baby was actually a girl, and her family adopted her?This sometimes did happen to cover up for illegitimate babies in the old days.  What if this was Margarithe, Karl Maucher's mother? That way, the DNA would have matched even if Gertrude was only a half sister (though I still don't believe the half sister theory myself)

How old was Margarithe? Could she possibly be the right age to have been FS's missing child?


OOOOOO!!  I like this theory.  I wonder if it would be possible.  Annie, I hate to say it, but I'm impressed!  ;) This is WAY out of the box....


Offline Annie

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 03:44:25 PM »
Quote

OOOOOO!!  I like this theory.  I wonder if it would be possible.  Annie, I hate to say it, but I'm impressed!  ;) This is WAY out of the box....



Thanks! :) I was hoping bear would think so too. This would also explain the secrecy around the family and the maternal relative thing. It could be, IF this was true, that they knew it but still wanted to keep it private, so they only told the scientists.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2005, 04:02:24 PM »
It's a very good "out of the box"  theory. But how do we discuss it here when this thread is about AA and not FS.  Shall we take it over to FS Timeline and see if we can fit this theory into FS's  life?  

Is that okay with all of you?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2005, 04:04:17 PM »
Repost it wherever you want, bear.

Offline AGRBear

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 10:30:17 AM »
Since there appears to be some confusion about AA's various meeting with FS family members,  so, I hunted around and found this one of Michael's.  I couldn't pull out the quote because it's locked down.  I highlighted the date:

Michael:  >>On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.  
 
The meeting took place at an in Wasserburg some few miles nw of Seeon.  Felix S. was sitting the beer garden with Dr. Voller, while Harriet von Rathlef wisely kept out of sight.  As she walked toward his table, AA asked the Duke, "Which one of the gentlemen is it?"  
 
Felix stared at her.  
 
Who is that lady, asked Dr Voller,  "That is my sister Francisca ." replied Felix.   All eyes turned to Anastasia,  
"Well, stammered the Duke, thoroughly amazed, "go and talk with your brother."   Dr Voller had already prepared an affadavit for Felix to sign, stating that this was indeed his sister Franciska S., and that he recognized her beyond any doubt.  Frau Rathlef was crushed, she handed the document to Felix, when she suddenly heard him say " No, I won't do it.  She isn't my sister."    
 
"She isn't your sister?" asked Frau Rathlef stunned by this about face.  
 
"No, said Felix again, adding that he would not sign a false declaration that might land him in jail."  
 
Dr Voller drew up another affadavit that Felix did not hesitate to sigh it"  
 
" There does exist a strong resemblance between her and my sister.  The resemblance is strong when you look from the front, but not when you look from the side.....Frau Tschaikovsky's speech...as well as the general expression of her manner is totally different from that of my sister, Franziska.... At today's consultation I spoke repeatedly with Frau Tshaikovsky.  There can be no doubt that she did not have the slightest idea who I was.  You could clearly see that she did no know me.  I went toward her and she gave me her hand and talked to me with perfect unconcern.  She showed no sign either of astonishment or of the slightest fear.  She behaved rather as one behaves towards a third pary to whom one is just being introduced."  
 
Then Harriet Rathlef went over the check list:  There were scars and birthmarks,  "My sister Franzsiska had no scars or birthmarks";  Teeth;  My sister Franziska had a full set of teeth. "  Languages; "My sister Franziska spoke a little polish and good german."  Feet;   "My sister Franziska had no deformities of the feet."  Here Felix took off his shoes and "with sort of a vanity", declared that Franziska has "pretty" feet, "just like mine."  
 
That is in Riddle of Anna Anderson  pgs 173-174....  
 
Michael

IP Logged

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 10:42:32 AM »
This sounds like a summary of events covering a longer period of time. It completely leaves out any meeting between the siblings, which I have seen mentioned elsewhere. I want another source. It is not unlikely that the author, being an avid supporter, left that part out, as many people  will do to make their own case look stronger.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 10:52:07 AM »
Hannover on July 9, 1938.

Quote
There are two meetings mentioned in ROAA, and none after 1938.  Checking again Gertrude is definitely NOT at the first meeting, and in the second meeting she is listed as being in the same room with Felix, the police, AA, Valerian, Frau Madsack, Gleb Botkin, Fallows, and Marie Juliana.

Just a clarification regarding some very obvious purposeful errors on the meeting at Wasserburg at the beer gardeon of the inn near Castle Seeon, at which the Duke of Leuchtenberg, Harriet von Rathlef, Dr. Voller,  A.A. & Felix were present.  There is no mention of Gertrude.    This meeting took place on 9 May 1927
(See ROAA by Peter Kurth pgs 173-174)

The second meeting took place in Hannover on July 9, 1938.  At this meeting were: Marie Juliana, Valerian, Felix & Gertrude,  AA,  Fallows, Frau Madsack & Gleb Botkin, at the Police Headquarters, this meeting took place through the orders of the Government, and the manipulation of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin.

At this meeting at Police HQ, in a room reserved for convicts and their families, AA, smartly attired in a new wool suit, walked up and down the wall, while the siblings observed her chattering amongst themselves in low German.  Shaking their heads and look "exceedingly doubtful".  Finally Valerian spoke: "No, this lady looks too different.:

And did all the brothers and sister agree?

They did.  Not only did AA not look a thing like Franziska said Felix, but she didn't even look like the same woman he had met near Seeon eleven years before.  Could they go home now?

AA made ready to leave.  The suddenly Gertrude started shouting, banging her fists on the table and turning red in the face,  "You are my sister!" she cried, grabbing AA by the shoulders and shaking her.  "You are my sister, I know it! You must recognize me!"

The police were looking at Anastasia as though she had been caught picking pockets: "Well what have you got to say?"

"What am I supposed to say?" said AA

"How many brothers and sister do you have?"

"Four." she replied

"Well here we are four!" Said Valerian

"This is crazy" said AA

"Where were you born?"

"In Russia."

The answer took everyone by suprise. "In Russia?" Valerian asked, shaking his head, "In RUSSIA?" Now Valerian, Felix and Marie Juliana turned back to Gertrude, this was crazy indeed; you coul tell that the lady was not Franziska.  But  the more the family protested the louder Gertrude got' "Admit it - Admit it",
until AA pale with fury turned and walked from the room.

NO ONE, including Gertude agreed to sign anything that day.

There is no mention that either meeting lasted 7 hours, and that Gertrude was present at the first meeting, and or that they spoke with her alone.  If we are going to start making blanket statements covering facts, lets get them correct or list the source they came from please.

Also the official records of her height & weight are from the police reports & from her medical records at Dalldorf.

This will keep issues & arguments that are unnecessary from happening on this thread.

Neither section on the two meetings mention the amount of time the meeting lasted.  Just from reading the first meeting seems more informal and friendly and could have lasted longer.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 04:13:31 PM »
>>9:00 PM, 18 Feb 1920
     The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin.  She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse  

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed.  These photographs were sent from Berlin out to   Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic).  Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly....  Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA...  This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes

>>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921

>>6 March 1922 Claire Peuthert tells Capt. Nicholas von Schwabe about AA, whom she said looked like GD Tatiana.... was at Dalldorf

>> 7 March 1922 Capt. Scwabe phoned his friend Franz Jaenicke and they agreeed to go to Dalldorf on Wed. , 9th of March....  Claire P. showed up at Capt. Schwabe's apartment

>> 9 March 1922  The first known contact of Capt Scwabe at Dalldorf, Ward B.  With him was Jaenicke.

>> 9 March, Wed.,  1922 the Supreme Monarchist Council heard about AA and so the word quickly spread through the whole emigre colony in Berlin....  The SMC sent guards to Dalldorf, people spoke with the doctors at Dalldorf, and people were sent to speak to the police....

>> 10 March 1922 Capt Scwabe brought to AA in Dalldorf Zinaida Tolstoy and her daughter, and, also, there was a Capt. Andreievsky

>>12 March, Sat., 1922  Baroness Buxoeveden arrived at Dalldorf to see AA with Zinaida Tolstoy.  It was the Baroness who pulled AA out of bed and declared that AA was too short to be Tatiana...  The Baroness left with little to say accept that AA resembled the GD Tatiana then went off to declare AA was not GD Tatiana as it had been thought ....

>>____ March 1922 Later, AA declared she had never said she was Tatina, which was apparently true,  AA had said she was Anastasia and everyone realized the mistake Buxoevenden had made and Capt. Schwabe continued to help AA.   The mistake had been created by Claire P.

>> 27 July 1925:  "Shura did NOT meet AA until July 27, 1925.  She met with AA along with Ambassador Zahle, Pierre Gilliard.  So there was a full 5 almost 5 1/2 years after Feb 1920 that she met with Shura or Gilliard, " Michael wrote.

>>On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.

>>9 July 1938:  The second meeting took place in Hannover on July 9, 1938.  At this meeting were: Marie Juliana, Valerian, Felix & Gertrude,  AA,  Fallows, Frau Madsack & Gleb Botkin, at the Police Headquarters, this meeting took place through the orders of the Government, and the manipulation of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin 

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 04:24:35 PM »
>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes

This information is found on p. 12 of Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:

"It was then, in the autumn of 1921, that Fraulein Unbekannt declared outright that she was Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna.  In the conversation that followed, as nurse Malinovsky remembers it, she was 'very upset indeed'.  She spoke of her sisers and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when 'a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face behind it and screaming,' and  'the leader of the the murderers of the Tsar, [who] went straight up to her father with his pistol..... mocking him with it and shooting at him'."

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152