Author Topic: AA, Timeline for  (Read 23503 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2005, 06:21:30 PM »
If AA was FS,  when did AA suffer her wounds like her broken jaw without anyone in her family knowing.  Not even the Wengender's talked about this.   And,  her silbings didn't notice  when she visited them Dec. of 1919.    

If AA wass FS, when did she carry a child for nine months?  AA told us she had a child.  The doctors at Dalldorf said she had a child. Since FS was in and out of asylums,  surly this would have been on one of the charts.  Far as I know,  this was not.   Were there nine months between FS's stays in an asylum to have had a child?  I don't think there was.    Maybe,  FS was pregnant by the man she had hoped to marry.   Gertrude never mentioned this and she would have known since she was living with her sister in those early days.

So far,  no one seems to have an answer to these questions.  Why?   Take a look at FS's Timeline.   If FS was AA then the two timelines have to be the same.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline casketkitten

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2005, 06:29:17 PM »
I am going to chime back in here. I am sorry if I forget where on the forums I read these things but can someone please, nicely...no need to chew mine or anyone's head off here, confirm to me:

when the interested parties first went looking for the sample, the hospital could not find it. Is that correct?

Later, the sample was located after it was discovered that the patient's first name had been put in as "Anastasia" not "Anna". Is that true or did I imagine that one?

AND, when the sample was at last located, there was, in addition to the sample its self, almost everything that had been used in this 1979 procedure, all nicely bagged and labeled. True or am I having a menopause moment?

I just want to get clear on these details, if you all could please chime in and let me know if I am right or wrong on this.
Thanks.  
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Offline AGRBear

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AA, Timeline for
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2005, 06:55:41 PM »
Let's explore the timeline between the surgery of AA in Aug of 1979 to the delivery of the intestine sample to Dr. Gill on 29 June 1994.


20 Aug 1979 -  AA was rushed to Martha Jefferson Hospital where Dr. Richard Shrum operated on her small intestine obstruction which prove to have turned gangrene.  Massie tells us the details on p. 194-5 THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:  

>>The procedure of sending the tissue to the pathology lab was sent 5 inches of intestines.  This tissue was divided into five one-inch segments which were bathed in a issue preservative called formalin, sealed inside a block of paraffin wax one inch square and half an inch deep, and placed in a small blue and white box on a shelf filled with other similar boxes containing tissue specimens.<<

12 Feb 1984   - Anna Anderson Manahan died.  Her body was cremated the same day.

July 1992 - Dr. William Maples stated that he believed Anastasia was the missing  Grand Duchess and not Maria whom the Russians claimed was missing

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School  because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA.  The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.

p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:

>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

Klier and Mingay give us more information on this request p. 203
>>...At the time the hospital was in a chaotic administrative state due to a major refurbishment, and although officals conducted a cursory search of their files, they did not find any recoreds under  either of those names.  Hospital officals claim they did not intentionally mislead Mandelbaum.  Indeen there was no tissue sample stored in the hospital under either name proposed by Mandelbaum.<<  The names he had given were Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan.

22 Nov 1992 Mary DeWitt,  p. 196, >>a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas<< asked the hospiital for some tissue because she'd like to stuy it for a paper.   They reply from Penny Jenkins was: >>"No, I can't help you."<<  Mary DeWitt did not give up.  She contacted Lovell asking for his help.  Lovel received a letter from John Manahan's cousin Fred Lowvel who granted Lovel authority to dispose of the tissue.

 Dec 1992, two days after Mary DeWitt's first letter  - Dr. Willi Korte conatacted Jenkins.  Her story was different to Korte.  She told him that they did have compartitive samples of AA.  
p. 206 of Kleir and Mingay:
>>Korte's...phone calls galvanized the hospital's acting director of medical records, Penny Jenkins, to take a more detailed look at the hospital's patient database. She made a through search of the viles and the pathology departemtn's vaults  and found that, indeed, a tissue sample from Anderson was held there, albeit under the name of Anatasia Manahan.<<  This was found Dec 1992one month after his first phone call.

Dec. 1992 - Thomas Kline with the law firm Andrews and Kurth contacted Jenkins.  Jenkins told him they had samples.

Sping 1993 Mary DeWitt's lawyer contacted Martha Jefferson Hospital, again....

The agreement between DeWitt and Lovel disintergrated and Lovel refused to be part of DeWitt's research.  Evidently DeWitt's husband was an investigator but there is no mention if he had been hired by anyone or if he was acting on his own or if  she was just doing this on her own.

Jan 1993 - Thomas Kline contacted Fred Manahan who referred him to Lovel.

16 April 1993- Kline wrote to Lovell formally asking for help in obtaining access to AA's tissue for DNA testing to be done by the Forensic Insitute in Munich.

18 March 1993 -Kline wrote Lovel again and explained what he thought of Korte and suggested Dr. Mary-Claire King [UC Berkeley] if he did not wish to use Munich with whom Dr. Gill was a part.

date? Lovel contacted Richard Schweitzer for advice.

Meanwhile, Penny Jenkins who had been contacted by these people and attorneys,  started to ask the hospital attorneys what needed to done.   The hospital attorneys dealt with Richard  Schwitzer who is a lawyer and use to post here on this forum.

May to Sept 1993 -
(1) Agreement was made to use a litigator Matthey Murray.
(2)  Richard  Schweitzer approached Dr. Gill after he was told the Armed Forces Institue of Pathology in Maryland could not agree to the terms of the test of the DNA.  And filed his wife's petition 30 Sept 1993 because of who she was and her contact with AA and being a citizen of Virgina which was required

1 Nov 1993 Circuit Court Judge Jay T. Swett dealt with this case


I will continue with this timeline as I have time.

So, what timeline do we have so far with just the discovery of the sample to the first court appearance: 20 Aug 1992 to 1 Nov. 1993 which is more than a year.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2005, 12:00:44 AM »
I believe it is correct to refer to Richard Schweitzer as Mr. Schweitzer rather than Dr. Schweitzer.

Mgmstl

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2005, 10:12:48 AM »
Quote
I am going to chime back in here. I am sorry if I forget where on the forums I read these things but can someone please, nicely...no need to chew mine or anyone's head off here, confirm to me:

when the interested parties first went looking for the sample, the hospital could not find it. Is that correct?

Later, the sample was located after it was discovered that the patient's first name had been put in as "Anastasia" not "Anna". Is that true or did I imagine that one?

AND, when the sample was at last located, there was, in addition to the sample its self, almost everything that had been used in this 1979 procedure, all nicely bagged and labeled. True or am I having a menopause moment?

I just want to get clear on these details, if you all could please chime in and let me know if I am right or wrong on this.
Thanks.  



Can anyone verify these events, as I am too having a some sort of junior senior moment???

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2005, 10:33:49 AM »
Quote
I believe it is correct to refer to Richard Schweitzer as Mr. Schweitzer rather than Dr. Schweitzer.


Here in the US, if a person gains  a doctor of law  or juris doctorite degree,  he/ she  can be call Dr. ____.  I do not know where Richard Schweitzer recieved his law degree.   If received in Germany, I think the lawyers are called Dr. ____.    Here in the US, unless a person is a teacher and not practing law,  they usually do not use the title Dr. _____.  I think I'm remembering all this right.  Anyway,   I think I was copying the name Dr. Schweitzer out of one of my books.  I will change to Mr. Schweitzer or Richard Schweitzer unless he requests otherwise.

Michael,  take a look at my above post under date of 22 Spet 1992.

I remember more details somewhere else which I've quote but, now, I can't find it.  Anyone know where else this information is found?

AGRBear



"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2005, 11:21:59 AM »
Quote

I was copying the name Dr. Schweitzer out of one of my books.  I will change to Mr. Schweitzer or Richard Schweitzer unless he requests otherwise.



I think you are confusing Richard S with Dr Albert Schweitzer - BIG difference!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2005, 08:00:17 PM »
Quote

I think you are confusing Richard S with Dr Albert Schweitzer - BIG difference!


FA:  Please remove since it is offensive to Richard Schweitzer and unnessary since I explained my error and corrections were already made.  Also, remove this post, too, please.

Thank you

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2005, 08:59:56 PM »
Quote

FS:  Please remove since it is offensive to Richard Schweitzer and unnessary since I explained my error and corrections were already made.  Also, remove this post, too, please.

Thank you

AGRBear

SORRY?
What is 'offensive'? Dr Albert Schweitzer was a great man. So, how could any possible confusion with Mr Richard Schweitzer be perceived as OFFENSIVE?

Agr, so you made an error --well -- at least you corrected it.

rs

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2005, 09:53:31 PM »
I called Richard Schweitzer,  Dr. Richard Schweitzer instead of Mr. Richard Schweitzer.  

Since I gave the name "Richard" and did not say Albert,  why did Helen say I was confused and then went one step farther and compaired Richard with Albert Schweitzer?

And, why am I still having this conversation???  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2005, 09:59:03 PM »
I believe this is what some of us were discussing:

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School  because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA.  The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.
 
p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:
 
>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

A month later, the sample is found.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline casketkitten

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2005, 07:53:35 PM »
Thank you, AGRBear, for your timeline. I can see now where this would have broken down from the get-go as the original  searcher at the hospital was given only two names to play with. HOWEVER, I am surprised that the hospital did not have a system by where they could go under SS# or patient ID #. The hospital I worked at had such a system in place by that time that would allow for variable searches.

I am also surprised that the person searching the data base didn't do a general search under the last name of "Manahan" with first initial "A". Manahan is not that common of a name, it would not have taken that long as opposed to "Anderson" or the like.

I am still wondering if I read correctly that when the sample turned up, it came complete with a host of bagged evidence from the procedure. IF I have read this right, I must say that is MOST unusual for 1979...not even high profile homicides got that much back-up in the days before DNA.

Again,  my thanks. I am glad that you were allowed to post a reply. Seems a little stuffy in here don't you think?
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2005, 11:36:52 AM »
Quote
Thank you, AGRBear, for your timeline. I can see now where this would have broken down from the get-go as the original  searcher at the hospital was given only two names to play with. HOWEVER, I am surprised that the hospital did not have a system by where they could go under SS# or patient ID #. The hospital I worked at had such a system in place by that time that would allow for variable searches.

I am also surprised that the person searching the data base didn't do a general search under the last name of "Manahan" with first initial "A". Manahan is not that common of a name, it would not have taken that long as opposed to "Anderson" or the like.

I am still wondering if I read correctly that when the sample turned up, it came complete with a host of bagged evidence from the procedure. IF I have read this right, I must say that is MOST unusual for 1979...not even high profile homicides got that much back-up in the days before DNA.

Again,  my thanks. I am glad that you were allowed to post a reply. Seems a little stuffy in here don't you think?


Yes, it does seem a person should be able to find the name "Manahan" and then notice "A"  or "Anna" or "Anastasia" may be one in the same and if not then ask the person, who is making the inquiry,  if  "Anna"  might be shorten version of  "Anastasia".

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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RE: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2005, 11:53:38 AM »
Timeline for the sample of intestines taken from AA:

So, what timeline do we have so far with just the discovery of the sample to the first court appearance:  20 Aug 1992 to 1 Nov. 1993 which is more than a year.

p. 202 of Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:

1 Nov 1993 Circuit Court Judge Jay T. Swett dealt with this case
The following people became involved during this time:
(1) Richard Schweitzer wo was representing is wife's petition
(2) Matthew Murray, the attorney for Martha Jefferson Hospital
(3) attorney (not named) from the Richmond Times
(4) Lindsey Crawford from the law firm of Andrews and Kurth under the New York Corp. known as the Russian Nobility Association

Since Crawford had not filed a peition the judge, after hearing why Crawford had not, gave her three days to file.

4 Nov 1993- Crawford filed her petition
One can read in more detail a version of Crawford's claim on p. 205.  The highlights were:
a) Marina Schweitzer's petition was not valid because she was not related to Anastasia Anderson
b) using the tissue sample to discover the true identity of Anastasia Manahan would be usedful and cannot be achieved in the manner requested by Schweitzer.  p. 205 a quote:  >>...the Russian Nobility Association heaped further calumny on Dr. Gill:  his laboratory was said to represent "second-best scientific testing", and his samples were said to have been possibly "contaminated."<<  Attached to these remarks  about the possibly "contaminated" were affidavits from (1) Prince Alexis Scherbatow and (2) Dr. William Maples who praised Dr. King at UC Berkeley and her ability to preform  DNA test.

The word "contaminated" was drawn into the petition by Crawford and not by Schweitzer who had requested Dr. Gill be the one to test the sample for DNA.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: AA, Timeline for
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2005, 12:23:27 PM »
Am I correct in assuming that the "year" you posit supports your intended inference that the sample was rigged?  In other words, during the year, someone at Martha Jefferson Hospital colluded with an unknown person for unknown reasons to plant evidence that AA was FS? And they did this with the assumption that AA's supporters would be the party to request DNA testing? Perhaps there is evidence that AA's supporters were prompted to make this request. It would explain their subsequent dismay with the results, if they had been assured that the DNA would support AA's identification as Anastasia.

Frankly, it seems more probable to me that AA was a cousin of FS, or one of the myriad other theories that have been advanced to explain away the DNA. How probable? Not at all, but that's me.

Simon
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