Author Topic: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family  (Read 42409 times)

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Offline TampaBay

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Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« on: March 07, 2005, 09:04:01 AM »
Quote

Prince Alexander is a dear, dear, friend of mine and I have always disagreed with him, respectfully, when it comes to who should be head of his house.

Arturo Beéche



Why is the Pauline line more popular?  

Who and why do you think shsould be head of the Yugoslavian/Serbian house.  

Which house is it Yugoslavian or Serbian house. ?

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2005, 09:39:14 AM »
It started as the Serbian house, and as there is no longer a Yugoslavia [it is a tenuous union of Serbia & Montenegro] I would suppose it is back to a Serbian house. That is my guess. Personally, I prefer the Obrevnovicis, more entertaining to put it mildly.
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Offline Marc

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 04:13:34 PM »

.I don't have any personal feelings about anyone I don't know.I was just saying what ordinary people think about members of their royal family!As far as royal family and murder of Franz Ferdinand is conserned-Gavrilo Princip(murderer) was Bosnian who wanted inependant Bosnia(not Serbia) as a republic-not monarchy,so he had nothing to do with the royal family...You will say he was Ortodox and Serbian,but he was not-he would say clearly he wanted bigger Serbia and not independant Bosnia!There are a lot of Ortodox people that don't share the same interest or schould they-just because they are Ortodox!As far as we speak about Colonel Dimitrievich and the Black Hand organisation is conserned there was a trial in witch he was found quilty and the trial organised the Karadjordjevich family under the reign of King Peter I.                                                                               There are still members of Obrenovich family in Serbia,but they could not be pretenders because they are not from the main Princely line-they are colateral branch and they don't even share the same family name(because first Prince Milosh was born Teodorovich not Obrenovich but took the second family name in honor of his stepfather).So there are still his colateral cousins around and they came to light as Queen Nathalie left everything she has(land,woods,mines in Serbia) to the remainers of the family,and she was very rich woman!She had that from her dowry whom she never spend to pay her husbands debts!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:55:31 AM by Svetabel »

wetzvonken

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 05:00:12 PM »
Robert many years ago Countess Maussie Orsic told me that her family were very much related to the Obrenovic. Even though the Orsic is one of the oldest families of the Croatian Nobility, whose ancestors were the Medieval Kings of Croatia, and therefore they were Roman Catholics. However they married some Princes and Princesses Obrenovic, which were Orthodox at the Saint Sava Church in Vienna. The Obrenovic lived at a sumptuous palace in Vienna most of the time of the Turkish occupation of their lands. King Milan was a good friend of Emperor Franz Joseph and his wife from Empress Elisabeth. The Obrenovic were issue of the Warrior King Lazar of Serbia, who defeated the Turks and the Bulgarians many times, before the Ottomans destroyed the Old Serbian Kingdom in the XIV Century. As far as I know, you will find many Austro-Hungarian families with Obrenovic blood, like the Orsic, Erdödyi and others, but no any Prince Obrenovic nowadays. By the way Arturo I find more preposterous to treat as a Prince, someone whose grandfather and great grandfather used the assassination as a tool to had access to a throne and provoked the bloodshed of the First World War, than denying this treatment to his or her grand children. After 1919 the Karageogevic oppressed and killed thousands of Croats and Slovenians, amongst them many real aristocrats, who were loyal subjects to their dear rulers the glorious House of Habsburg-Lorraine. Only in Russia something similar happened when Tsar Paul I was murdered by Count Pahlen and others in 1801. But his son Aleksandr I didn’t know that they were going to kill his father. Regretfully this was quite common in Eastern Europe in the past. But Aleksandr was a legitimate Prince of the Romanov Holstein dynasty. This wasn’t the case of the Karageorgevic; they weren’t royals, just usurpers of a Throne, as I explained in my previous letter written early today.  

Offline kmerov

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2005, 05:28:23 PM »
Maybe its me, but I still fail to see why the Karageorgevic family wasnt royal, if they seized power and ruled the country in a monarchial way so to speak.
Im just asking...

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2005, 05:33:45 PM »
Quote
Maybe its me, but I still fail to see why the Karageorgevic family wasnt royal, if they seized power and ruled the country in a monarchial way so to speak.
Im just asking...


I agree.  If you are crowned King of a country and also rule/reign you are Royal.

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wetzvonken

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2005, 08:52:24 PM »
Ladies and Gentlemen I had reached a point in this discussion that I am convinced that the only thing that rules our interchange is a terrible bad faith from people who are extremely in favour of the Karageorgevic family. How you dare to say if they were in fact Kings who reign in a monarchical way, they are royals. All right the Saudis are royals as well, the chap who proclaimed himself in Africa as an Emperor some twenty-five years ago more or less was a “royal”?, if Ossama Bin Laden considers that he has the right to be the Caliph, or King of the Muslims we must consider him a royal as well? I must remind you that he said that he would restore the old Muslim order reigning from the VIII Century to 1492, when the last Muslim Kingdom was defeated in Spain. So Ladies and Gentlemen you can add this person to your list of royals (he has close ties to the Ibn Saud family), list which no matter how many people someone had killed or murdered or the way that this person had acceded to the throne, the only thing that matters is that you are in fact a “King”, maybe with lots of blood in your hand but at the very end a King. Wonderful sense of ethics and Christian morality. By the way, Arturo I don’t need your explanations about the Hesse-Darmstadt und bei Rhein family, because I read almost all what has been published about the different German Duchies, Kingdoms, Princedoms from the Holy Empire to the fall of the Monarchy in 1918, and I know plenty of them personally. To continue a discussion with you, even after we decided not to go on with insults and aggressions is a waist of time. There is a big difference to be a dilettante in History as many of my opponents and to be a true Historian.  I wonder why you don’t publish all your conclusions in a book with all your arguments that will be by sure the delight of Mr. Milosevic in his prison at The Hague, or General Ratko Vladic, Karadzic or other Serbian criminals of war. I wonder as well why you are so one sided when we argue about the role of your favourite “Royal” family in the tragedy of World War I, and the persecution and slaughter of thousands of Croats, Slovenes, Magyars before World War II. The confiscation of the land of the Hungarian Gentry in those provinces that used to be part of Saint Stephen’s Crown. All these events led to the hatred from all the former subjects of His Apostolic Majesty the Emperor and King (recently beatified by His Holiness our Pope John Paul II) towards the Serbs, especially towards the tchetchniks who supported your dear Karageorgevic family. The same people who in the past decade massacred, raped and tortured thousands of Catholic Croats, and Muslims from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then they did the same in Kosovo. As I said before I will never accept any violation of human rights coming from anyone, that’s why I condemn all assassinations against Serbs during the last World War. Again Ladies and Gentlemen there is no balance in your opinions, too one sided, and with a terrible lack of knowledge. Arturo blamed me as a name dropper, I will blame him as a “killers names dropper.” My family served with dignity for fifteen generations to the House of Habsburg, and I am extremely proud of it, four of my great uncles perished in World War I fighting for their Sovereign and for the very existence of a Monarchy which kept proudly the balance of power in Europe for almost seven centuries. End of the discussion.  I need a more serious forum, like I experienced some time ago discussing a different subject through the Washington Post, or at The Times of London.

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2005, 05:49:54 AM »
wetzvonken,

You make a very good point.

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Offline Marc

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2005, 06:57:36 AM »
Dear Wetzvonken,I see that only you are here one sided!I am from Belgrade(Serbia) and don't have anything against anyone(Croats,Muslims...) and think that the cultured people are cultured not because of their nation and faith,but because they are born like that!First of all-everybody is quilty for war-no mather what you think!There are no innocent sides like you wish to pretend!It is ok when you want to save your country from breaking apart-but I am against war!For example lets take Kosovo and Albanians(you have heard about it)!It would be the same if the Turks who are in majority in some parts of Germany or Switzerland would like their own country in the heart of Germany or Switzerland!I will tell you-It would be never alowed!How would you feel if someone would try to take away from you part of the country(your country) witch has always been very hisoricaly important to you and your people!?!Serbia was a poor country,but she was 500 hunderd years under the Turks!But I will remind you that there are written documents about the visits of Friedrich Barbarosa(German Emperor) to Serbia while going to Crusade wars!At that time he was served the lunch with the golden forks and knifes witch he didn't know how to use!So,if I wanted to be rude to someone who is German(and I am not) I could say that while the Serbian rulers(was an Empire once) were eating with the golden knifes and forks German Emperors were eating with their hands!But,I respect everyones faith and religion and judge people by their character,not by nation,colour etc.And also when you speak about the WWI you also must know that the first helper of Gavrilo Princip(Ortodox Bosnian-not Serbian-who murdered Franz Ferdinand) was a Muslim(don't know his name,but if you want I will check in books) and there was an agreement that if Gavrilo Princip fails to kill Franz Ferdinand that his first aid would kill him instead!So,if Gavrilo Princip has failed to kill Franz Ferdinand,he would be killed by a Muslim-and whom would you blame then for his killing???I wanted to say that they didn't want Bosnia to become Serbia or to become monarchy-they wanted liberal multietnical Republic of Bosnia!Thats why all Bosnians worked together,no mather if there were Catolics,Muslims or Ortodox-they had the same goal!If you consider Bosnians and Serbians the same people-that is your opinion but it would be like you are comparing Germans and Austrians(much alike and connected but with their own identity),otherwise there woulden't be so much discussions if Adolf Hitler was a German or Austrian...I did not say all this in order to be rude,but just to tell you that there hasn't been any country that did not base their rule by killing or poissoning their rulers(look at France-Vallois poissoning,killing of Louis XVI,Russia-killing of Ivan VI and Peter III for dynastic reasons,Spain-killing in try of Alphonso XIII and Queen Ena)!Should I now say that the Spaniards are wild people because of trying to kill their King?Should I say that the French are pretended to be aristocrats who used parfumes instead washing themselves?No,I WILL NOT,just because I come here to have little bit of fun,to learn something interesting and not to insult any nation by generalising their native characteristics!Wetzvonken,thank you for understanding me and greetings to all-Marc!

wetzvonken

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2005, 09:38:40 AM »
"The profound irony was that the men who arranged the killing of the Austrian Heir and his wife and thus goaded Vienna into belated action had nothing to do with this official and secret Serbian policy, and their instruments Gavrilo Principic, Nedjelko Cabrinovic and Trifko Gabez, a group of teenagers, were characters out of play by Anton Chejov. All of them were born in Bosnia, but all of them were Bosnian Serbs and Orthodox. The Narodny Obranje or National Defence League was founded with the support of the highest circles in Belgrade; including members of the new dynasty the young Prince Alexander was an outstanding member. Dimitrijevic was a true believer in terror and assassination, he was heavily supported and reinforced by the Russian Militar Attaché Colonel Artamanov, who lavished on him subsidies and assurances of Russian support, if Serb nationalist activities provoke Austria into making war on Serbia. They reached this horrendous goal sending millions of Europeans to die in the Battlefields of the Great War. Prince Alexander, Pasic and Dimitrijevic had in common their hate to Austria, to the Habsburg cosmopolitan idea of a multi ethnic Empire, and very especially they feared that the accession to the throne of Franz Ferdinand with his ideas of a Federal Empire (with four parliaments and an elected chamber of representatives) with the support of all minorities within his realm, will put and end to their goal of a Great Serbia. " I had written these paragraphs in a previous letter. You cannot compare my friend the murder of King Louis XVI in January 1793 with the assasination of Franz Ferdinand, or the attempt to kill Alfonso XIII and Queen Victoria Eugenia in 1906 the day of their wedding. In the first case was a revolution in his country, which changed the face of the world forever. Those who tried to kill the King of Spain were the same anarchists who had killed the King of Italy and the Empress of Austria in Geneva some years earlier. I am speaking about assassinations in modern times orchestrated by a State not by a group of youngsters, Principic and his friends, were trained in Serbia, they received support of agents of the then Pasic Government. Even though it is truth that Dragutin Dimitrijevich was shoot later, this was organized to silence him by Pasic and the others co authors of the killing of Franz Ferdinand. It is proved that those pro Serbian teenagers were just the tool of this plot, and it is true as well that the Minister of Serbia in Vienna went to the Ministry of Foreign Affaires to prevent them that something might occurred during the visit of the Archduke to Sarajevo. None of them wanted to found a New Republic in Bosnia; their only aim was their dream of a Great Serbia, a Kingdom that was going to unify all the Southern Slavic people. What they did not take into account was the opinion of Croats, Bosnians (non Serbs) and others. For them Franz Ferdinand and his ideas of a Federal and multi ethnic Empire were to dangerous for their goal, would make impossible a Great Serbia, the same one of Milosevic (he studied carefully the USA Constitution during his visit to Washington). There are plenty of documents that proved what I am saying you can consult at the Widener Library at Harvard, or in Standford University, Yale, Princeton and many other Libraries in the USA or in different official and academic archives in Europe. Again the Serbian Government used those poor guys to reach their own agenda, with the complicity of Russian agents, like the militar attaché in Belgrade, and some French agents as well.  To get rid off the Habsburg Monarchy was a priority for many Republicans, or Pan Slavic. With this final statement I will put and end to the current discussion, I feel that this is a waist of time. You will never agree with me, because there is an evident bad faith in most of the arguments that you had opposed to me. For instance the discussion about nicknames, if Alfred of Saxe was called on Alfie, Affie or whatever other nickname, this is totally superficial. I am just writing a book about Central Europe with one of my former Professors in the USA. I hope that we will be able to publish it before the end of 2006. It takes a lot of time. Last but not least, I know quite well the history of Serbia, they were quite brutal with their enemies but his was quite common in Eastern Europe, Russia was a good example. But I must recognize that they were extremely brave and heroic in their struggle against the Ottoman oppression. They received lots of support from Vienna during centuries, and they were part of the defenders of the City when the Turks besieged it during the XVII Century. So this is it.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by wetzvonken »

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2005, 09:45:38 AM »
If you consider that our discussions are a waste of time and then when challenged decide to attack and rave, why, I ask, must you thus continue your rants?

The fact of the matter is that the Karageorgevich family ARE Royal Highnesses, ARE the royal family of the former Yugoslavia, ARE related to Europe's other royal families and ARE still loved by many within their former realm.

Arturo Beéche
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wetzvonken

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2005, 10:00:40 AM »
As I told everybody before this is it. I am totally fed up with you a real dilettante in History and some of your friends. Farewell I will not answer you any more.

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2005, 03:04:51 PM »
Quote
If you consider that our discussions are a waste of time and then when challenged decide to attack and rave, why, I ask, must you thus continue your rants?

The fact of the matter is that the Karageorgevich family ARE Royal Highnesses, ARE the royal family of the former Yugoslavia, ARE related to Europe's other royal families and ARE still loved by many within their former realm.

Arturo Beéche



I can now understand how WWI got started in Europe. None of the Karageorgevich curently alive today murdered anyone.  No Germans alive today are responsible for the Holacaust.  I as an American cannot and will not be held responsible or accountable for the slavery that existed in my country prior to 1860.

I am a monarchist because I believe these people totally by accident of birth can work together for the greater good of the world totally free of politics in an unofficial and informal way that George Bush, Tony Blair and the president of the UN cannot.

If the Serbian and Russian people reinstate their monarchies they can put anyone or any family they want on the throne.  

Even Queen TampaBay, King Martyn, Crown Prince Arturo and Crown Princess Marlene if they so choose.

TampaBay.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by TampaBay »
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Offline jfkhaos

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2005, 04:41:43 PM »
Thank you TampaBay!  I feel just the same way:  the people alive today, whether you be royal or not, cannot be held responsible for the actions of our ancestors.  You have made your point admirably and I can only bow my head in admiration ;)

Offline Marc

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Re: Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia & family
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2005, 06:15:53 PM »
As far as Gavrilo Princip in conserned,Austrians wanted to take Serbia into war and they wanted some reason for it,because they didn't have any material proufs...Best evidance was for them to have admition of Gavrilo Princip HIMSELF that he was trained by Serbian secret police,but that admition never took place neither from him or from others that were envolved in murder!If they would admit Austria offered some some small favours in the trial in return!When Austria didn't or could not have have any material prouf for war they send the ultimatum to Belgrade that was not accepted-as I said-because that was not any proufs that Sebia was evolved exept the fact that Gavrilo Princip was Ortodox-not Serbian,but from Western Bosnia!So,Austria had a very good base story and they a reason for war,but there were no material evidance for it!Serbian allies(France,Great Britain,Greece...) realised that Serbia was not envolved in that and they gave Serbia great support at that period of time!And as you might know- in law-all that is not prouven did not happen,exept the fact that he really was a murderer and that behind him is the organisation ''Young Bosnia''-witch had only one goal!That goal is liberation of Bosnia and as you know in EDICT of that organisation-''Young Bosnia''-Serbia or Serbian people were NEVER mentioned!!!Serbia DIDN'T WANT the war after so many wars that she had and if she wanted really to kill Franz Ferdinand she would send profesionals instead of young and inexperianced people!It ould be paradox!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Then(if you want),lets say we achived an agreement that we had enough of this missunderstanding!I love to hear eveyone's opinion no mather if it is different to mine(that's democracy)!I just wanted to say thet you can't generally accuse the whole one nation because of something!You can accuse the polititians and leaders,but not the whole nation!It would be as if I say that every German is bad or evel as maybe Hitler was...That would be nonsence!I meet so many nice German people and that's why I can not say those things!For one war you have 2 sides(or maybe more),so there are two(or more than two) sides to blame and neither side is innocent!Thank you for understanding me!Greetings-Marc