Author Topic: FS as AA--Why and How  (Read 30092 times)

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Offline Denise

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FS as AA--Why and How
« on: May 12, 2005, 10:56:13 AM »
I have been wondering, since Peter Kurth relates details AA gave the nurses at Dalldorf about the muders (that we now know to be true) where she might have gotten the info.  

I am NOT too interested in any Cheka plot theories, I am looking to discuss this in a realistic fashion.  Anyone have any ideas where FS may have gotten more details about the murders?  After all, wasn't what happened to the IF still pretty hush hush outside of Russia at this point?  

One thing I read about FS is that after Mrs Wingender took her in as a charity case (after the munitions factory explosion and FS breakdown) she spent a lot of time in her room reading books.  This may explain some of her info on court life, but not all.  

Anyone willing to discuss these ideas?

Offline Annie

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2005, 11:00:45 AM »
I would be very interested to explore what went on behind the scenes of the whole AA case, who was feeding her, how it all happened. I have to go now, I'll be back later to post more. Great thread!

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2005, 11:55:30 AM »
Quote
I have been wondering, since Peter Kurth relates details AA gave the nurses at Dalldorf about the muders (that we now know to be true) where she might have gotten the info.  

I am NOT too interested in any Cheka plot theories, I am looking to discuss this in a realistic fashion.  Anyone have any ideas where FS may have gotten more details about the murders?  After all, wasn't what happened to the IF still pretty hush hush outside of Russia at this point?  

One thing I read about FS is that after Mrs Wingender took her in as a charity case (after the munitions factory explosion and FS breakdown) she spent a lot of time in her room reading books.  This may explain some of her info on court life, but not all.  

Anyone willing to discuss these ideas?


Well just a couple of points.  Ms Wingender & her evidence has to be looked at carefully, not only of her payment from Die Nachtausgabe, but from the fact that she is the ONLY person to step forward to claim she was FS, of those who knew her before 1920.

As to her information on court life, could that much detailed data and information have been in the magazines of Berlin before her jump into the canal?

AA learned more after Gleb Botkin came along, but the Botkin children didn't spend all that much time at court.

It is obvious that she had to have knowledge of the family to get as far as she did, but from whom and what did she obtain such knowledge.   She could be like one of these phony psychics or hucksters, that play upon people's reactions, and answers to get more knowledge.



Offline Denise

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 12:22:58 PM »
Quote

Well just a couple of points.  Ms Wingender & her evidence has to be looked at carefully, not only of her payment from Die Nachtausgabe, but from the fact that she is the ONLY person to step forward to claim she was FS, of those who knew her before 1920.

As to her information on court life, could that much detailed data and information have been in the magazines of Berlin before her jump into the canal?

AA learned more after Gleb Botkin came along, but the Botkin children didn't spend all that much time at court.

It is obvious that she had to have knowledge of the family to get as far as she did, but from whom and what did she obtain such knowledge.   She could be like one of these phony psychics or hucksters, that play upon people's reactions, and answers to get more knowledge.



No Michael, not Doris.  She and her sister Louise were the witnesses in the trial.  It was their mother who housed FS.  So I would think her testimony might be OK.  But anything Doris says is highly suspect, I agree.

And as far as who she got things from, it seems in the Kurth book that AA was giving the nurses info at Dalldorf before Clara came along.  Wondering where that came from.  Who or where did that knowdge come from?  I'd say that coincedence is a bit far fetched.  

I agree that she probably preyed off the reactions of others, but only after her identity as AN?AA was established.  THe people who she needed to convince (those that knew the real GDA) didn't come until there was a buzz going on about her.



Offline AGRBear

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 12:52:04 PM »
The only person who stepped forward to claim AA was FS was Wingender who also produced two photographs which she claimed showed FS wearing a dress she had given her but the court proved the two photographs had been altered.  When the German court felt the need, they ask for an oath and did ask Wingender who refused to say she had been speaking the truth about AA being FS and that FS had been with her during the time period AA had vanished.


Quote
During the court trial of 1958-61 the photographs of Wingender were presented.  

Wingender said that the one photo was of Franziska

Wingender said one was of Schanzkowska in the summer of 1922 and then there was one of herself in 1920.  Both were wearing the same dress.

The experts discovered that the one photographs which was FS  had been altered and buttons had been added and that the two dresses were not the same.  The photo of Wingender had also been altered and someone in the photo had been removed.

These photos were important because it was how Wingender was proving she had seen FS in 1922 during the time frame when AA's time is not accountable.

Wingender than refused to swear a oath that she was speaking the truth about FS.  She refused to return to court.

I'll have to dig around for the information on the changes made to FS's photo of her standing with an apron near some trees.
AGRBear


As for gaining information, it's obvious AA did have some knowledge.  I'm not sure what books were out there for AA to have read about the Russian IF.  Anyone know?  There was probably more information in magazines like the ones in the Dalldorf Asylum.  What about old newspapers?  How long were they held in libraries at that time?  

As I've said before, having been working in genealogy, a person learns how to gain information from another person even thought that person is not aware of the value of the information.  And, so, Mrs Unknown, kept her ears and eyes open, ussed her information when it best suited her purpose and learned how to act in certain ways that covered-up her lack of knowledge.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Mgmstl

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2005, 01:05:16 PM »
Quote

No Michael, not Doris.  She and her sister Louise were the witnesses in the trial.  It was their mother who housed FS.  So I would think her testimony might be OK.  But anything Doris says is highly suspect, I agree.

And as far as who she got things from, it seems in the Kurth book that AA was giving the nurses info at Dalldorf before Clara came along.  Wondering where that came from.  Who or where did that knowdge come from?  I'd say that coincedence is a bit far fetched.  

I agree that she probably preyed off the reactions of others, but only after her identity as AN?AA was established.  THe people who she needed to convince (those that knew the real GDA) didn't come until there was a buzz going on about her.




Denise what  I am saying is that NO ONE but the Wingender's stepped forward to identify her as FS, and to state that she was FS.   Also no one else came forward from the family or among acquaintances did come forward to identify her as FS.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2005, 01:26:49 PM »
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...no one else came forward from the family or among acquaintances did come forward to identify her as FS.


Her sister Gertrude did, in a very dramatic way I may add, but then she caved in to the family pressure  ;)

Offline Denise

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2005, 01:56:00 PM »
Felix too, at his first meeting, then changed his mind.  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2005, 02:28:10 PM »
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Her sister Gertrude did, in a very dramatic way I may add, but then she caved in to the family pressure  ;)


Gertrude  never gave  a sworn statement that AA was FS. If she did not state it in any form such as as a letter or document then all the rumors about her caving in under family pressure is just that, rumor.

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Felix too, at his first meeting, then changed his mind.  


No. Felix did not change his mind in their first meeting.  He said he would not sign anything which stated AA was FS on that day or any day which followed.  


AGRBear


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Denise

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2005, 02:36:38 PM »
No Bear, upon first seeing her, he said "that is my sister."  However, when he left he denied her and wouldn't sign anything stating that it was FS.  Named a number of subjective differences between the women.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2005, 03:00:56 PM »
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No Bear, upon first seeing her, he said "that is my sister."  However, when he left he denied her and wouldn't sign anything stating that it was FS.  Named a number of subjective differences between the women.


No, I believe he said something like, AA could be his sister.  Then something about she didn't look like his sister from the side. When,  Felix was handed papers to sign, he looked at them for a moment and then replied that AA was not his sister and that he would not sign papers stating otherwise.

No matter which scenario you pull out of our posts or books, it all boils down to the fact that Felix said he would not sign the papers because AA was not his sister FS.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2005, 03:01:25 PM »
Denise,

What does AA relate to the nurses exactly? I can't find my copy of the book.

I did get online where they let you read part of the first chapter but it did not take me up to AA's statements to the nurses.

What I did read was that the pictures taken in hopes of identifying AA( the ones we both thought were strange) were taken while she was being hospitalized.

The book goes on to say AA was terrified, hiding her face and had to be held so that the pictures could be taken. This is not readily apparent in the pictures, in fact a strong argument can be made that she seems relaxed.
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Offline Denise

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2005, 03:06:38 PM »
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No matter which scenario you pull out of our posts or books, it all boils down to the fact that Felix said he would not sign the papers because AA was not his sister FS.

AGRBear


Well, for that matter, Bear, neither did Gertrude (sign anything).  

But, the mtDNA doesn't lie.  There is a family connection there.  

Offline Denise

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2005, 03:07:52 PM »
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Denise,

What does AA relate to the nurses exactly? I can't find my copy of the book.



IM, let me get that for you later tonight.  I have small children, and it is easier to type that in when no one is yanking on my arm!  ;)

Offline AGRBear

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Re: FS as AA--Why and How
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2005, 03:28:39 PM »
The nurse Bertha Walz talked about the photograph that she and the others nurses showed AA she is quoted on p. 11 in Kurth's book:  "She became utterely sad, quite pale and said, 'I know all these.' Summoning her courage, Nurse Walz pointed to one of the Grand Duchesses "and asserted that this one daughter of the Tsar as suppposed to have been rescued.  Fraulein Unbekannt corrected [her] and said no, not the one [Nurse Walz] had pointed out, but another of the Tsar's daughters had remained alive."

Evidently this was not the first time AA had seen the photograph.  According to Nuse Thea Malinovksy, she had seen AA with the magazine during the night.  And that AA had pointed at the photograph and asked Malinovsky if she thought AA looked like the youngest daughter of the Tsar's.  Malinovsky asked AA if that girl wasn't AA?  But AA shut down.

It was not until the autumn of 1921 that AA finally stated that she was GD Anastasia.

What I've asked on other threads is about this particular magazine.  According to Kurth the one magazine held the  "recounting the sensational news of the murder of the Tsar and his family at Ekaterinburg."

And, another question: Nurse Walz pointed  to which of the GDuchesses?  We assume it was Anastasia but was it?  

This leads to another question:  Why did the magazine say that one of the daughters was rescued?  This as in 1920.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152