Author Topic: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him  (Read 23560 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mgmstl

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2005, 11:37:51 AM »
Quote
Michael,  you've heard me say toooooooooooooo many times that a thread isn't about DNA.   ;D

I do think we can talk on this thread about DNA and mtDNA and glass slides, syringes, etc. since Dr. Ginther was asked about these things and did reply about these things.

And, yes, it was Dr. Ginther, who was under  Dr. King's watch, who worked on the Romanov bones as well as AA's DNA but then became independent of Dr. King while working for Remy.

AGRBear




My apologies to Bear, Finelly , I was somewhat confused thinking I was on the FS similarities thread.   Yes this is also a DNA  oriented thread.

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2005, 11:42:49 AM »
Quote
"Finelly for some reason seems to be baiting Penny even after Penny gave her answer.  If you have a problem with Penny or Greg, please,  the rest of us wish you'd take this problem to PMs."

Heavens, I have no idea how I gave that impression!  I feel absolutely no animosity toward Penny or Greg.  I actually am so glad that Penny posted again, as I would like to hear more from her.  I certainly don't know enough about any theories she has even to criticize them.

Penny - if I have offended in any way, I apologize.  It was not my intention.

I like to think that I do not "bait" people, as I tend to stick to issues and am pretty open to considering anything.  Especially on the topic of AA, FS, and AN, since I remain fascinated by the entire story.



Gosh, no!  I'm not offended by anything -- I think I read your post as you intended it to be read, so I had to go back just now and LOOK for something.  I think it was just a misunderstanding over pronouns.  De nada!

And thank you for your nice pm!
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2005, 11:54:43 AM »
Quote


Please, there is no need to question Penny's or Greg's integrity.  Nor is there need to question the memory of the other two authors.   As we've learn in these various threads, memory is a delicate factor and not often reliable.  This is why lawyers prefer evidence than having to depend on memories.

AGRBear


I totally agree with this assessment.  John Klier and Helen Mingay may well have forgotten a couple of conversations that took place just over five years ago.

It may also be that they didn't want to be involved in discussing FOTR -- or us --  if they perceived the atmosphere of the interview as adversarial or agendized.  It's a professional courtesy not to engage in that sort of thing -- there was a time a year or so ago, when someone from this board asked a certain famous author at one of his lectures about FOTR.  This author later told us that he thought that the person was going to start a fairly emotional diatribe against us in public -- and so he simply said, "No, haven't read it, don't know about it" -- and moved on.

In any event, this interview is a non-event as far as I'm concerned.  John and Helen were polite and professional and most helpful to Greg and I when we approached them five years ago.  We remain most grateful, as it was their work that specifically inspired ours.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2005, 12:08:09 PM »
Sorry Finelly,  I misidentified you in my earlier post.  It is, now, directed at the correct poster, Jay-Ro-Mee.

Thanks Michael for pointing out my error.

I, also, apologize to Jay-Ro-Mee, also, because I may have misread your post.

I was careless and should have read the posts more carefully.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2005, 12:23:58 PM »
Quote
As for the "chimera" theory.  That is what it is at the moment a theory.  Penny introduced the theory.  If it turns out wrong, it turns out wrong and we move foreward.   Since Helen think's the theory as absolutely ludicrous, that's fine.  My only problem with this was when I asked Helen a long time ago if there was a possible answer to this DNA linking AA to Gertrude without them being related, she voiced that there WAS one way it was possible.  When I asked Helen about more detail,  she said she had been  pulling our leg and did not explain farther.  When I went back to find this particular post, she had removed it.  Months later, when Penny introduced the theory of "chimera", Helen admited this was the one possible but improbable theory she had hinted at earlier.  And,  I voiced my disapointment in Helen.  Why not?  I had thought she was open and honest about all of this DNA stuff.  

To me, this "chimera" theory doesn't seem probable, and, if Helen had just told us about it, given us all the reasons it wasn't  probable,  I would have just thought "okay" and forgotten about it, but Helen didn't and went as far as eliminating her post, so,  my trust in Helen was shaken, so,  I wasn't  sure what to think.

 AGRBear


If I may, I would like to recap for the record my take on the "chimera theory"...

Way back in 2000, I was working on the US Census here in Riverside.  My district covered UCRiverside (the local campus of the University of California), and I worked with a doctoral student who had lived in -- I think -- Finland for a few years previously, in order to work on the project that was mapping the human genome.  One thing leads to another, and before long, I was talking to him about this case, and our upcoming research trip.  I remained in touch with him for quite some time -- at least until he moved to Bulgaria in winter 2002/2003 -- and took note of several pieces of advice he gave me, one of which was to look into the possibility of chimerism in Anna Anderson.

A couple of years later -- this must have been just about six or seven months ago -- my memory was jogged when I was watching an episode of CSI and chimeras were mentioned.  I did a small -- SMALL -- amount of research on it, and rather liked what I saw insofar as a theory that explains everything goes.  

Chimerism is a condition wherein a person has different DNA in different tissues:  the DNA in a chimera's blood is different from the DNA in the chimera's skin or intestinal tissue or organic tissue or whatever.  There is also a condition called mosaicism, wherein the person's DNA distribution looks like a mosaic across all tissues -- the DNA in the skin of the upper arm is different than the DNA in the skin of the lower arm, the DNA in one bone is different from the DNA in another bone.

Now, I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable this theory is -- what I do know is that it fits all the DNA results that we have without any scientist having to be accused of incompetence, or anyone having to be accused of malfeasance of some sort with the intestinal or blood-slide evidence.

Having seen with my own eyes how well Dr Sandkuhler's archives were conserved, and knowing MP Remy as a stand-up guy, and not doubting that the Martha Jefferson Hospital and the staff at Peter Gill's lab and the Armed Forces lab are all competent and well-meaning -- I don't like to doubt any of them without cause.  Chimerism in Anna Anderson allows everyone to be right -- IF the DNA in her intestine is different from the DNA in her blood.  

And chimerism COULD happen -- it DOES happen -- though we don't know quite how often it does.  Who here has had their blood DNA matched against DNA taken from another tissue in their body?  When is this ever necessary?  Who on this board could absolutely say for certain that he or she is NOT a chimera?

And all this is not to say that I know or even necessarily believe that Anna Anderson WAS a chimera.  I don't think that it's anything that could ever be proven at this point.  But it's a THEORY -- which doesn't necessarily have to be true.  It's just something that explains everything without pointing fingers of conspiracy or blame, which is not something that I like to do -- and that's why I personally like it.

Q.E.D.
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2005, 02:24:40 PM »
Thank you Penny. I learned new things!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2005, 02:33:23 PM »
Learning new things and discussing old things is why this forum is so great.

Thanks Bob and Everyone else!

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline JonC

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 202
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2005, 02:45:30 PM »
OK Guys, I'm a lot frustrated here....This thread is about question to ask Dr. Ginther and all I get is information about AA and FS.

Now for someone who is waiting on the Dr. Ginther discoveries concerning AN and the Imperial family... I"m on edge here. So...Dr. Ginther did or didn't get enough sample to study the Romanovs?

How did his study compare with Dr. Gill's?

Helen_Azar since we know I'm a dud at the scientific aspect of this could you please explain what the results were in Xenia Sfiri? She was maternally linked to Tsar Nicholas, I know, but Dr. Ginther said that position 16126 she had (A->G) or something like that. Is this a range of values because from the Nature Genetics magazine I see she had a 'C' at this position just like Nicholas.

Some of you seem to interpose AA and or FS with AN in your conversation when responding to Dr. Ginther's work. I don't think that's reality. JonC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JonC »

jeremygaleaz

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2005, 04:59:21 PM »
Quote

In any event, this interview is a non-event as far as I'm concerned.  John and Helen were polite and professional and most helpful to Greg and I when we approached them five years ago.  We remain most grateful, as it was their work that specifically inspired ours.


Would you mind showing us your notes on the subject then? John Kleir said he never heard of you, and Helen Mingay didn't seem to know who you were either. (She was on the phone talking to her husband, Mr. Kleir as the interview was taking place.)

And, more to the point, neither had ever heard of the whole half sister issue. Even if we allow them room for having forgotten who you were, the fact is that they  said they never promoted a "half sister theory" (in fact, the interview was the first time John Kleir had ever heard of this sibling question. And his wife gave it no credit either. And, both were aware that notes were being taken down during the interview) and had no evidence to support such claims, they only had evidence to support two marriages for FS'S father.(It was Helen Mingay who did the research for AA's family, her husband stuck mainly to the topic of Russian History.) No evidence to say what children belonged where in the arrangement.


And both believe AA was FS "110%"

But, in the past you've used Kleir and Mingay as a source for the half sister issue (I'll see if I can find the posts)

Here we go:




The half-sister issue was raised by the Kliers, who had done research above and beyond questioning the family.  As has been stated elsewhere on these forums, family can often be mistaken or misinformed.


(They said they never raised this issue. All Helen Mingay said she had was info that FS'S father had two marriages...and had no evidence to support any theory as to what children belonged to which mother.




"Klier and Mingay speculated that Gertrude -- and possibly the other children -- were from a previous marriage or relationship because of several items of interest that they did not include in their book."  



(they said they had no items of interest, and never speculated such)



. And there are many people here interested in the history of FS'S family. So, for the interest of the people on this thread, would you mind posting your notes on the subject?        
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

jeremygaleaz

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2005, 05:05:04 PM »
Quote

Helen_Azar since we know I'm a dud at the scientific aspect of this could you please explain what the results were in Xenia Sfiri? She was maternally linked to Tsar Nicholas, I know, but Dr. Ginther said that position 16126 she had (A->G) or something like that. Is this a range of values because from the Nature Genetics magazine I see she had a 'C' at this position just like Nicholas.



Hopefully Helen will be back on in a few days to talk more about the DNA, as well as her recent interview with John Klier

jeremygaleaz

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2005, 05:09:22 PM »
Quote
.

I, also, apologize to Jay-Ro-Mee, also, because I may have misread your post.

I was careless and should have read the posts more carefully.

AGRBear


No offence taken at all Bear. When we receive new and interesting information it is always good to question old sources who say things that contradict what these new sources are saying... or how else to we learn the truth? It's never good to blindly accept something. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2005, 05:28:50 PM »
Quote
Would you mind showing us your notes on the subject then?


You HAVE to be joking!   I don't have their permission to reproduce their five-year-old words here.  Ours was a private conversation not intended for publication.

Quote

John Kleir said he never heard of you, and Helen Mingay didn't seem to know who you were either. (She was on the phone talking to her husband, Mr. Kleir as the interview was taking place.)


If this is an issue for John Klier and Helen Mingay, they can contact either me or Greg directly.  We will privately provide them with information regarding our contact with them.

This rather odd little issue will not play out in a public arena.

Quote
And, more to the point, neither had ever heard of the whole half sister issue.


That's funny, because they wrote about it.  Don't believe the quote I excerpted above -- do go and check it out for yourself.  When they refer to "first family" and Felix and Franziska being issue of the second marriage, I don't see how it can be denied that half-sibling relationships are evident.

Quote
No evidence to say what children belonged where in the arrangement.


Again:  They say that Felix and Franziska were of the second marriage, and refer to a "first family."

Quote
And both believe AA was FS "110%"


They are perfectly free to do that -- but it doesn't mean that they are correct.

Quote
But, in the past you've used Kleir and Mingay as a source for the half sister issue (I'll see if I can find the posts) .


You don't have to.  I freely admit it.  Back in 1999/2000, spurred on by the excerpt of Klier and Mingay quoted above, Greg and I embarked on an investigation of the Schanzkowsky family as part of a wider project.  Today, we know that FS's father did, indeed, marry twice, the first time to Josefina Peek, with whom he apparently had no children.  His second marriage, to FS's mother Marianna, produced these children -- from memory: Franziska, Martin, Valerian, Felix and Maria Julianna.  Gertrud's birth information has not been located -- unlike that of the others -- and therefore she cannot been placed definitely as a child of either marriage.

So what we know has changed in the ten years since the Kliers published -- and even in the five years since we spoke with them, which is why I won't publish here details of old conversations without permission.  But it was they who first introduced the idea of two marriages and two families.

Quote
And there are many people here interested in the history of FS'S family. So, for the interest of the people on this thread, would you mind posting your notes on the subject?        


Just out of interest, Jeremy, let me ask you this:  Why on earth, after you've treated me with ridicule, juvenile mockery and disrespect almost since the day I registered here, should I do anything for you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

jeremygaleaz

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2005, 05:54:14 PM »
Quote

You HAVE to be joking!   I don't have their permission to reproduce their five-year-old words here.  Ours was a private interview.


Write to them and ask them, or I can do it for you.. I can provide John Klier's email for you if you like. They're very nice people, and I'm sure they wouldn't mind. John Klier also enjoys talking about Russian History alot, and is a highly repected Proff. in good old London. In fact, he heads the Jewish studies department I believe.  

Quote

If this is an issue for John Klier and Helen Mingay, they can contact either me or Greg directly.  We will privately provide them with information regarding our contact with them.


This isn't an issue for them. They've learned to ignore stuff like this, as they feel it is best.



Quote
That's funny, because they wrote about it.  Don't believe the quote I excerpted above -- do go and check it out for yourself.  When they refer to "first family" and Felix and Franziska being issue of the second marriage, I don't see how it can be denied that half-sibling relationships are evident.


The arugment  has always , specifically, been about half sister relationships with Gertrude...and they have said they have no evidence to support that idea. Only two marriages. Nothing that says which child went where.
They also said that they wrote the book rather quickly (their publisher wanted them to get it out before Robert K. Massie's "Final Chapter" came out. So, perhaps their editor didn't proof read? Don't know how it works yet in the publishing  world)

In fact, no where in that quote are the words "half sister" or "Gertrude" even mentioned. And one of your posts has them referring to Gertrude specifically when they're contradicting that, and saying they said no such thing.

 
Quote

Again:  They say that Felix and Franziska were of the second marriage, and refer to a "first family."


Again, with no specific evidence to say what children went where. In fact, they have no evidence to say that there were childen from the first marriage at all. A very important fact that has been upheld by present day research, right?


Quote
They are perfectly free to do that -- but it doesn't mean that they are correct..


Well, there's still that less then one percent margin of error...which works better if we forget the total acceptance of AA as FS by the Schankowsky family today.

Quote
Just out of interest, Jeremy, let me ask you this:  Why on earth, after you've treated me with ridicule and disrespect all over this thread, should I do anything for you?


Well, I think a Ditto is in order, and this isn't about me and you know it.  I'm doing my own research, and arriving at my own conclusions. But there are people who are interested in this topic who read and post on this forum...and when a new source totally contradicts just what an old source has been saying for some time now....well, that's interesting to people.  No one is attacking you and there is no reason to get defensive .

People here would like to know just what your side of the argument is. So, if you like, feel free to publish your notes for their benefit and interest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »

Offline etonexile

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1231
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2005, 05:59:55 PM »
I have this feeling that AA WAS AN...and possibly FS...and that it had something to do with "alien abductions"...I know these things can happen...Don't laugh at me....just support me....

jeremygaleaz

  • Guest
Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2005, 06:06:41 PM »
Quote
I have this feeling that AA WAS AN...and possibly FS...and that it had something to do with "alien abductions"...I know these things can happen...Don't laugh at me....just support me....


I agree. I think the humor of your posts are very helpful. I wish I still had my British sense of humor. But I lost it with the accent since I moved back with the Yanks...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jeremygaleaz »