Author Topic: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him  (Read 21701 times)

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Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2005, 07:59:15 PM »
Dr. Ginther's reply:

"Got your e-mail.  Sorry, I had lost your e-mail address literally the day you previously called.  I did find my folder on the Anna Anderson case, and will send you what I can within two weeks.
Chuck Ginther"

C1
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2005, 05:49:15 PM »
I am quite excited because today I received an E-mail from Dr. Ginther which is about five pages in length. After I receive permission to post all of it or in part here,  I will.   Meanwhile I'll have to read it two or five times to make sure I understand everything he is telling us.   This will be the first time that some of it will be made public.

Hope the permission comes quickly so you can read what I'm reading.

C1

Offline lexi4

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2005, 12:19:34 PM »
That is amazing! Good work. How did you ever find out how to contact him and then get a reply?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2005, 07:07:24 PM »
Curious One,

Your perserverance paid off! Wonderful.

Are you waiting for permission from Dr Ginther?
I chose the road less traveled and now...where the heck am I????

Offline JonC

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2005, 07:44:35 PM »
This is very interesting.

I would like to know what results did Dr. Ginther get from his MtDNA analysis of the 'Romanov'  bone samples he got from Dr. King?

Also, where did Dr. King get the samples to give to Dr. Ginther for his study?

Offline JonC

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2005, 08:01:38 PM »
CuriousOne, Dr. Ginther is going to send you the MtDNA study of AA's tissue, right?

What about his results of the MtDNA study on the 'Romanov' bones? Since it was supposed to be a second independent study to Dr. Gill's work do you know if he finished the study? If so could you ask him to e-mail that also to you so that everyone can see it.

I am interested to see how the two MtDNA studies of the Koptiaky forest remains compare.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JonC »

Offline JonC

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 08:09:55 PM »
Can someone enlighten me...I'm not up to the University abbreviations..but what university is 'UC'?

Offline Lanie

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 08:15:14 PM »
Quote
Can someone enlighten me...I'm not up to the University abbreviations..but what university is 'UC'?


University of California univ. system... University of Colorado univ. system... I can't think of anything else...

Offline lexi4

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2005, 08:19:03 PM »
Can anyone tell me where to go to read more about Dr. Ginther?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2005, 09:23:05 AM »
July 6, 2005

Dear J.A. Hubert,

I realize from going through my files that there is a large amount of "Romanoff" material there.  In addition, I have copies of lab notebooks that have details of the work (and that I have not been able to find yet.)  Since your questions pertained mostly to the Anna Anderson slide, I will send you the information that surrounds that part of the data.  I do have some caveats.  This work was done over 10 years ago, and so many details are vague to me.  To be completely honest, I had forgotten about some of the experiments and only had my memory jogged by the documents in my files.  In addition, this work was done when DNA forensics was experimental in the truest sense of the word.  Of the workers active in mtDNA identification at the time, I would generally believe the work of Mark Stoneking (Penn State), Mark Wilson  (FBI),, Mitch Holland (US Army), Peter Gill and Kevin Sullivan  (Forensic Sci. Service, UK), Also note, the Anderson sequence often referred to is the standard sequence used for most mtDNA comparisons,  It was the first mtDNA sequence done, and Anderson refers to the scientist who led that work, and has nothing to do with Anna Anderson.  So here is the material from my two folders that relates to Anna Anderson:
(See next post)


Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2005, 09:23:57 AM »
(See post above)
I. The sequencing of Sofia Princess of Hanover (maternally related to Alexandra):  

Doc. S1:  A fax indicating that blood from Sofia was received September 27, 1993, from Dr. Med. E. Pittrof, Internist.  

Doc. S2:  Sequence sheet for mtDNA isolated from Sofia:  Examined nucleotides 16083-16369.  Changes relative to the Anderson sequence: 16111 (G->A), 16357 (A->G).

ASIDE:  I never sequenced Prince Philip, and that was done by Dr. Peter Gill.  Instead, I sequenced Sofia, also a maternal relative of Alexandra.  The sequences of Sofia and Philip  matched.  As will be shown below, the none of the various "Anna Anderson sequences" isolated matched Sofia’s sequence.  This data is believable.
(See Next Post)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2005, 09:24:49 AM »
(See posts above)
II. The sequencing of Margarete Ellerick:  

Doc. EM1:  Fax letter from me to Mr. Philip Remy dated July 11, 1994.  "…I am sending you the data that I have for "Willi sample-M.E" [Margarette Ellevik sample provided by Willi Korte].  Nucleotides 16024-16474 were determined.  In that region, variations from the Anderson sequence were found at 16126 T->C, 16266 C->T, 16294 C->T, and 16304 T->C.  Base 161146 could not be determined on the gels…"

Doc. EM2:  Letter from Dr. Kevin Sullivan, Forensic Sci. Service, UK, dated July 21, 1994, to Julian Nott of Canalot Studios.  Forwarded to me by Mr. Philip Remy on August 1, 1994.  "ANNA ANDERSON DNA TESTING. I confirm that the mitochondrial sequence of Karl Maucher ("Schanzkowska") matches exactly that of Margarete Ellerick, which you provided in your communication of 12 July.  Nucleotides 16021 to 16400 inclusive, were determined.  Variations compared to the Anderson sequence were as follows: 16126 C (Anderson=T), 16266T (Anderson=C), 16294T (Anderson=C), 16304C (Anderson=T).  Base 16146 is A and therefore matches the Anderson sequence at this position…"  

ASIDE:  The sequence of Margarete Ellerick was clear, and also did not match any of the various "Anna Anderson sequences" that were done. This data is believable.
(See  Next Post)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2005, 09:25:51 AM »
(See posts above)
III. The sequencing of material from Anna Anderson blood slide.

Doc.AA1: "RECEIPT FOR MATERIAL BEARING BLOOD SAMPLE"  a notarized document dated February 14, 1994, stating that we received via Federal Express from C. Derschka of MPR, one glass slide containing blood to be used for scientific study.  A sealed envelop with a tag bearing the number 431/94, contained a clear plastic container with the slide and a document written in Germany.  Although I do not read German, the document appears to state that notary Hans G. Hervol verified that the enclosed slide was received from Prof. Dr. Stefan Sandkuhler and it contained blood claimed to be taken from Anna Anderson in June, 1951.  

Doc. AA2: Fax letter from me to Philip Remy of MPR, dated Sept. 30, 1994. "To repeat the information that I gave you last night: 1. The Anna Anderson sequence was obtained for nucleotides 16252-16397, a total of 146 bases.  There were variations at sites 16278 (C->T), 16294 (C->T), and 16311 (T->C) relative to the Cambridge (or comparison Anderson sequence…). 2. The Margarete Ellerick mtDNA sequence contained three nucleotide variations relative to the Cambridge sequence in the 16252-16397 region: 16266 (C->T), 16294 (C->T), and 16304 (T->C).  Clearly the Anna Anderson and Ellerick sequences are not identical.  Assuming that the mtDNA isolated from the  slide was authentic DNA from Anna Anderson, and not a contamination (an important assumption,) the data suggests that Anna Anderson is not related to the Schanzkowska family.  3. You asked about the sequence isolated from the needle case.  I did the DNA isolation and the sequencing was done by Beth Stevens on Mary-Claire King’s lab, according to my notes.  The isolation was very difficult and I would not put great faith in the results.  The sequence obtained differed from the Cambridge sequence in the region 16252-16355 at 16266 (C->T), and 16311 (T->C).  This is not identical to either of the above sequences. 4. As you know from the Gill paper, the maternal side of the Russian royal family differed only at base 16357 (T->C) in region 16252-16397.  This does not match Anna Anderson …"

Doc. AA3: "RECEIPT AND SHIPMENT OF BLOOD SAMPLE.  Signed letter dated June 22, 1994, stating that the blood sample received Feb. 1.4, 1994, was securely stored at the lab and that no third parties had access to the slide.  Also that I would separate the slide and sent parts to another lab via Federal Express to Notar Josef Poelsterl in Munich, Germany.  

ASIDE:  I sent fragments of the slide containing blood purported to be from  Anna Anderson to Drs. Hummel and Rameckers of the Institut fur Anthropologie der Georg-August-Universtat Gottingen (I presume at the request of Mr. Philip Remy) along with the mtDNA primers used for PCR: L16208 x H16401 (biotinylated) and H16246 x L16040 (biotinylated).  They isolated mtDNA fragments using PCR from material on the slide.  The fragments were send back to me for sequencing (see Doc. AA6).

Doc. AA4: Letter from Susanne Hummel, Institut fur Anthropologie der Georg-August-Universtat Gottingen, dated September 22, 1994.  Letter showed a picture of PCR fragments produced from using the "Anna Anderson blood" sample.  Only a single PCR, using primers L16040 x H16246 produced a band of the correct size. This was sequenced by me (see Doc. AA6).

Doc. AA5:  "mt-DNA amplification of samples from A. Anderson" a letter dated Feruary 16, 1995, from Jens Rameckers of the Institut fur Anthropologie der Georg-August-Universtat Gottingen.   "as agreed on the phone with Susanne Hummel, we now send you PCR samples for sequencing the A. Anderson products (A1-A3) including all controls.  The controls consist of no template controls (X1, X2,…,X6) and amplifications of my own (JR) and Susanne’s DNA (SH).  We were the only two persons in our lab who were in contact with the Anderson slides (extraction,, PCR setup, etc.) Enclosed are also photographs of all six PCR runs for your orientation…"  Original photos of agarose gels containing the PCR mtDNA products were enclosed.  

The gel of PCR1 displayed DNA bands in the no template controls, indicating that the reagents were contaminated with exogenous DNA that was not from the slide sample.  Similar problems occurred in PCR2 controls using H6401 x L16208 primers, but the H16246 x L16040 controls seemed fine.  I could go on with each PCR, but to make a long story short, some of the experiments were clearly contaminated with DNA that was not from the slide, while others seemed alright.  In the samples that had good controls, the PCR amplification products in the "Anna Anderson blood" samples were very light.  

Doc. AA6: "Sequences of the Anna Anderson Blood Smear Slide"  a report of the sequencing results of PCR fragments produced  by Drs. Hummel and Rameckers.  The note presented the methodology used and the sequence results for the mtDNA fragments.  The data was not pretty:  Without going into detail, the PCR samples produced 9 different  sequences.  None of the sequences were identical to those of Sofia of Hanover or Magarette Ellevik.  The only possible conclusion is that the results from these PCR experiments are not very meaningful and did nothing to clarify the status of Anna Anderson.  

Doc. AA7:  This is added as an aside since nothing ever came of it.   Receipt for materials bearing blood samples. From Dietmar Wulff, Federal Repulic of Geremany…delivered the following materials to the Receiving Party: 1. Three needles; 2. Three syringes; and 3. Two metal pan pieces.  These materials contain blood which is to be used in scientific study.  As I remember, this material was supposed to have been used to perform some operation on Anna Anderson.  I was not able to get anything from the material.  I signed for these items on November 4, 1993.  Wille Korte signed as witness.  

ASIDE:  As to your question about what I think happened.  Clearly the Anna Anderson slide did not contain enough high quality DNA from the original donor to produce consistent results.  The sequences obtained varied from one PCR experiment to the next, and thus cannot even be attributed to Anna Anderson or any other single individual.  I would presume that the slide was both contaminated and contained little, if any, of the original donor DNA.  Any data from that slide is, in my opinion, not believable.
(See Next Post)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2005, 09:26:49 AM »
(See posts above)
IV. Sequence of Xenia, daughter of Felix and Irina (maternally related to Nicholas).

Doc. X1:  I have a data sheet for "Xenia Sfiri"  that stands alone, and I do not remember how I received the sample.  Perhaps I will be able to find information in my lab notebooks.  Her sequence included nucleotides 16030 to 16335.  Changes relative to the Anderson sequence were 16126 A->G, 16169 (G->A), 16294 (G->A) and 16296 (G->A).

You asked about the work of Karl Maucher.  Since I have not followed this case for 10 years, I am not familiar with it.  I also have not read the Massie book and so am not familiar with its conclusions.  

You also asked about the relationship of Gertrude to Margarete Ellerick.  I never wanted to know any more than necessary about any sample because I feared that knowledge might prejudice my result.  I do not remember being told anything about Margarete’s family.  

I hope this answers your questions.

(XXXXXX Personal information to J.A. Hubert and not given hereXXXXXX)

Thanks,

Charles Ginther, Ph.D.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by CuriousOne »

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Re: Dr.Ginther- Questions To Ask Him
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2005, 09:34:50 AM »
Ok, now can you summarize that?