Author Topic: How Many Palaces?  (Read 8969 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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How Many Palaces?
« on: May 25, 2005, 05:31:40 AM »
I once read that the Tsar owned seven palaces.  That figure seems low, and I've never found a definitive list.  Does anyone have a list of the palaces either owned by the Tsar or within his direct control (as opposed to palaces owned or controlled by other members of the Romanov family)?

Offline Romanov_Fan19

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 05:05:57 PM »
ive read 7  as well      how many Yachts?

Offline Ortino

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 08:52:33 PM »
I don't know the exact number the Tsar controlled, but we should form a list. These are the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

1. Alexander Palace
2. Catherine Palace
3. Peterhof
4. Livadia Palace (if that counts)
5. Winter Palace

Are you including the Gatchina and Anitchkov Palaces in that list? I know the Dowager Empress lived in these, but I don't know if they were directly controlled by the Tsar.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ortino »

Offline londo954

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2005, 12:17:18 AM »
You are forgetting of course the palaces outside St. Petersburg not the least of which included the Kremlin

Offline Dmitry2

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2005, 09:10:31 AM »
There were the palaces in the Kremlin.  There was Spala.  There were a number of smaller estates and palaces scattered here and there throughout the country, from the little lodge in Finland, to the palace in Kiev etc.  However, some of those were maintained by the respective cities.  Imperial finances were rather complex.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2005, 03:08:59 PM »
I'll take a stab at all I can bring to mind (and I'm sure I'm missing some):

1.  Alexander Palace
2.  English Palace
3.  New Palace
3.  Catherine Palace
4.  Winter Palace
5.  Ropsha
5.  Grand Kremlin Palace
6.  Palace of Facets
7.  Anichkov Palace
8.  Spala
9.  Yelagin Palace
10.  Kozumensky (sp?) Palace
11.  Grand Palace at Peterhof
12.  Gatchina
13.  Chesme
14.  Livadia
15.  Small Palace in Moscow (not sure of its formal name)

Then there were a host of smaller residences in the main palace parks:  Marly, the Chinese Pavilion, Peter the Great's Summer Palace, etc.

And a host of other palaces which were built for rulers, or their family members, or favorites and subsequently passed in and out of the tsars' hands:  Pavlovsk, the Michailolvsky Palace, the Engineer's Palace, the Tauride Palace, the Marble Palace, etc.

In fact, I'm not even sure how what definitional parameters to wrap around my original question.

Maybe the simplest way is to ask what palaces did Nicholas and Alexandra have at their disposal for personal living quarters, should they have chosen, at the time of the revolution.

Additions or deletions, anyone?

Offline Caleb

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2005, 10:00:39 PM »
Quote
I once read that the Tsar owned seven palaces.  That figure seems low, and I've never found a definitive list.  Does anyone have a list of the palaces either owned by the Tsar or within his direct control (as opposed to palaces owned or controlled by other members of the Romanov family)?

I think I know the source that your'e refferring to, the A&E documentary, Nicholas & Alexandra. As far as the Kremlin goes would that be joint ownership of Grand Duke Sergei & Czar Nicholas?

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2005, 10:09:02 PM »
There were Imperial apartments in the Kremlin, but I don't think there was a split ownership.

The Kremlin is huge and had many uses.  Church, Imperial living quarters and more.

I don't think that GD Sergei even lived there, he had his own palace in Moscow.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2005, 05:46:01 AM »
What was the legal ownership status of the imperial palaces?  Were they property of the state or personal property of the tsar?  (It has been noted on many occasions that Livadia was built by the tsar with his private funds, which I have taken to mean that other imperial residences were not his personal property.  But I may be wrong.)  Would the distinction have had any practical effect on what use the tsar could make of them?

Offline londo954

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2005, 08:38:54 AM »
Don't forget Livadia was the only palace built during Nicholas's reign to be used by the imperial family. If I am correct, there were only a handful of Palaces that he maitined for his personal use.....the rest belonged to teh crown and were pad for either by their occupants or by the Imperial Treasury such as Peter's Summer Palace which had become a museum but prior to that was used by heirs to teh throne, Yelagin, Kamenostrovsky are but two that were owned by teh crown !!!

Offline Monarchist

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 10:39:12 PM »
Very interesting thread. Can I ask a question too? I've always wondered on who gets what palace and why. The Imperial Family was very large, the main nucleus and the other relations. So,
1. anyone has information on how where these palaces and mansions distributed as the family grew larger?

2. if the property was assigned (or build) by birth, like a new Romanov baby gets a new future home, where their children allowed to keep the home or did they had to move out so the Czar could give it to another family member? Like in Kensington Palace, that has been converted into a species of Royal Condominiums for some of the members of the British royals.  

3. did any Romanov tried or was allowed to sell a place given to his family or did it reverted back to the Czar's list of properties?

Thanks

Offline Mie

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2006, 06:11:04 AM »
I'd like to know how people do count the owner of these palaces couse actually I am now watching book(memories of Olga, Nic sister: the last granduches)and there is said Nikolai II had 7 palaces and during his seasong of ruling the Anichkov Palace was held by his mother! Tsarfan says it belonged to tsar. So could it be like every palace what belongd to Romanov belonged to tsar but who lives there was a different thing. Maybe those seven palaces were paleces where Tsars family lived... ???

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2006, 05:49:44 PM »
I'm no authority on the ownership of the palaces (which is one of the reasons I started this thread) . . . so don't take what I said about the Anichkov as definitive.

In Maria Pavlovna's (the Younger's) biography, she mentioned that her family had apartments at the Catherine Palace.  And I know there was a series of apartments at the Winter Palace assigned to members of the extended family, at least during the 19th century.  I think some others were also assigned apartments at Pavlovsk.

But were the staffing and upkeep of the Catherine and Winter Palaces (and the other large palaces) funded out of the tsar's household budget or the state budget?  I have read that the tsar had 17,000 employees on his household payroll.  Even though that included the staffs of the Imperial Ballet and Imperial Theater -- and, I assume, the imperial museums? -- I cannot image it took that many servants to run just the palaces in which Nicholas and Alexandra actually spent significant time.

Did any of the staffs move around with them?  For instance, when the IF was staying at the Lower Dacha instead of the Alexander Palace, did some the kitchen staff follow them and their retainers?  Or was each kitchen kept fully staffed all the time?

(By the way, I left the Lower Dacha off my original list.  But I have read somewhere on this Forum that the IF actually spent much more time there than is generally known, as the court calendars often reported them in residence at the Alexander Palace when they were actually at the Lower Dacha.)

Sorry for the rambling post . . . but this topic has so many tentacles.

Offline Tatyana

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Re: How Many Palaces?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2006, 10:07:58 PM »
Quote
I'll take a stab at all I can bring to mind (and I'm sure I'm missing some):

1.  Alexander Palace
2.  English Palace
3.  New Palace
3.  Catherine Palace
4.  Winter Palace
5.  Ropsha
5.  Grand Kremlin Palace
6.  Palace of Facets
7.  Anichkov Palace
8.  Spala
9.  Yelagin Palace
10.  Kozumensky (sp?) Palace
11.  Grand Palace at Peterhof
12.  Gatchina
13.  Chesme
14.  Livadia
15.  Small Palace in Moscow (not sure of its formal name)

Then there were a host of smaller residences in the main palace parks:  Marly, the Chinese Pavilion, Peter the Great's Summer Palace, etc.

And a host of other palaces which were built for rulers, or their family members, or favorites and subsequently passed in and out of the tsars' hands:  Pavlovsk, the Michailolvsky Palace, the Engineer's Palace, the Tauride Palace, the Marble Palace, etc.

In fact, I'm not even sure how what definitional parameters to wrap around my original question.

Maybe the simplest way is to ask what palaces did Nicholas and Alexandra have at their disposal for personal living quarters, should they have chosen, at the time of the revolution.

Additions or deletions, anyone?

There was also the Imperial Palace in Kiev.