Author Topic: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex  (Read 160013 times)

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #330 on: February 15, 2012, 12:02:44 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but why are Edward & Sophie not the Duke & Duchess of Wessex?
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Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #331 on: February 15, 2012, 01:17:54 PM »
According to what I've read, he declined the Cambridge dukedom in favor of the lesser title of Earl of Wessex at his marriage. His desire is to be granted his father's title, which will not automatically pass to him as he is not the oldest son. So, it looks like he "settled" for an earldom while waiting for his desired dukedom.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #332 on: February 15, 2012, 01:31:10 PM »
That is pretty much what I had read as well, RW. BTW, is Edinburgh a royal dukedom or is it roayl only because of him, I wonder.
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Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #333 on: February 15, 2012, 02:34:20 PM »
All creations of the Duke of Edinburgh have been bestowed upon royalty and not one on the nobility.

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #334 on: February 15, 2012, 02:48:14 PM »
According to what I've read, he declined the Cambridge dukedom in favor of the lesser title of Earl of Wessex at his marriage. His desire is to be granted his father's title, which will not automatically pass to him as he is not the oldest son. So, it looks like he "settled" for an earldom while waiting for his desired dukedom.

And this poses a rather complicated situation. Charles will inherit his father's dukedom upon Phillip's death. Next in line to that title is William, Charles' son. Either Her Majesty or King Charles III will have to write letters patent to reverse the course of this title being inherited within Charles' male line and transfer it to his youngest brother, Edward. Not a smooth transition by any means.

However, I think it is very commendable that Edward is waiting for the Dukedom of Edinburgh, which will keep that title and his father's memory around it alive or extant (as we all know, the current Duke of Edinburgh has done some amazing things and has attached that dukedom to some of his own initiatives, such as the Duke of Edinburgh's Award). Otherwise, when Charles becomes king, it will become extinct and revert to the crown until a fourth creation is bestowed on a royal prince (if the tradition of only bestowing this title on royalty is continued) in the future.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 02:54:40 PM by RoyalWatcher »

Offline Lucien

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Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #335 on: February 16, 2012, 10:34:57 AM »

TRH will start their tour of the Caribean next tuesday the 21st till march 7th representing HM Queen Elizabeth II
in the frame of overseas visits by the Members of the British Royal Family on occasion of HM's Diamond Jubilee.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2012/02/edward-sophie-get-all-the-islands-.html

courtesy hja
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Offline Selencia

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #336 on: February 18, 2012, 09:03:23 PM »
According to what I've read, he declined the Cambridge dukedom in favor of the lesser title of Earl of Wessex at his marriage. His desire is to be granted his father's title, which will not automatically pass to him as he is not the oldest son. So, it looks like he "settled" for an earldom while waiting for his desired dukedom.

That's interesting, I have never heard that before. Granted I don't pay any attention to Sophie and Edward. But why would the title of Duke of Edinburgh go to the youngest son and not to Charles or Andrew? Or is he specifically requesting it go to him?
Also it seems that you are indicating that once you are made a Duke of one place you can not change it ever?

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #337 on: February 19, 2012, 03:23:50 PM »
That's interesting, I have never heard that before. Granted I don't pay any attention to Sophie and Edward. But why would the title of Duke of Edinburgh go to the youngest son and not to Charles or Andrew? Or is he specifically requesting it go to him?
Also it seems that you are indicating that once you are made a Duke of one place you can not change it ever?

Titles in the British peerage pass from father to eldest blood-son. If no eldest blood-son, it passes to the next (younger) blood-brother of the title holder. If the brother is dead, it goes to his blood-son. If there is no son, then the next senior blood-male in the family line obtains the title, etc. You are probably wondering why I keep inserting "blood" before the relation...that is because title can only pass to blood relatives. If one is adopted, that individual is not allowed to inherit the title unless the sovereign makes it so with letters patent.

With this knowledge, neither Andrew or Edward are in line to inherit their father's title. It will pass directly to Charles upon Phillip's death. Charles would never use that title since Prince of Wales (England) and the Duke of Rothesay (Scotland) are the most senior royal titles in the United Kingdom other than that of sovereign. And, yes, it has been reported that Edward has specifically requested the title to pass to him. Being a son of the sovereign, traditionally, he should have been bestowed a dukedom, but as the story goes, he "settled" for an earldom until his father's title becomes available at his death. This will not be automatic. Special letters patent will have to be drawn up as this title cannot pass to him. It will have to be created for a fourth time specifically for Edward and his line by the sovereign.

A duke cannot change his title: he is either created as such by the sovereign or inherits the title upon the death of the previous holder. The sovereign is the only one that can grant peerage titles. I've never heard of a duke "abdicating his title" or giving it back to the sovereign although it may have happened in the past. I just don't have specific knowledge of any one instance that I can sight as an example.

 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 03:35:43 PM by RoyalWatcher »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #338 on: February 19, 2012, 04:33:17 PM »
A rather obtuse example of this might be,  when  Edward VIII abdicated, he was also relinquishing the Duke of Lancaster title [and income].
 I vaguely recall other examples, but  they were long ago.
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Offline Selencia

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #339 on: February 19, 2012, 07:28:42 PM »
Are the titles Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York higher than Philips title?
Robert Hall if Edward gave back the Duke of Lancaster title does that mean his brother inherited that title when he became George VI?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #340 on: February 20, 2012, 03:53:48 AM »
The dukedoms of Cornwall and Lancaster are 'odd'.

Lancaster passes directly from monarch to monarch, and has done since 1399. Cornwall is rather more complicated. Each heir apparent (normally eldest son of the monarch, but can be a male line grandson), becomes Duke of Cornwall at birth or on parent's accession if later. On each Duke's accession, the dukedom passes to his heir apparent if there is one, otherwise it 'merges with the Crown' until there is an heir apparent. So Edward VII was Duke of Cornwall from birth. On his accession, his heir apparent, the future George V, became Duke of Cornwall, to be followed by the future Edward VIII. Edward VIII had no heir apparent, so the dukedom merged with the Crown on his accession, and remained so until Elizabeth II succeeded on 6 February 1952, at which point her three-year-old son Charles became Duke of Cornwall, and remains so.

York is a conventional dukedom and should pass from father to son in the ordinary way. However, six Dukes of York have succeeded to the throne themselves, so that the dukedom has merged with the Crown and later been regranted, and most of the others have failed to produce sons. The only one who did was the very first Duke of York, Edmund, a younger son of Edward III. He was succeeded on his death by his elder son Edward, who died at Agincourt (he was found face-down in the mud after the battle without a mark on him, and it is surmised that he either souffoucated or had a heart attack). Edward had no legitimate children, so was succeeded by his nephew Richard, who was the father of Edward IV and Richard III. The present Duke only has daughters, so unless he marries again and surprises us it looks as though the dukedom will once again become extinct on his death (and available for either Prince Harry or William's second son if he has one).

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Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #341 on: February 20, 2012, 12:48:16 PM »
Are the titles Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York higher than Philips title?
Robert Hall if Edward gave back the Duke of Lancaster title does that mean his brother inherited that title when he became George VI?

The Duke of Cornwall is "higher" in rank than Phillip's title. The Duke of Cornwall title is the second highest ranked duke in the land behind the Duke of Lancaster, which is held by the sovereign. As far as how the Duke of York ranks in comparison to his father, this is my understanding of royal precedence as confirmed by Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_precedence_in_the_United_Kingdom):

1. HM The Queen
2. HRH The Prince of Wales (Duke of Cornwall/Duke of Rothesay)
2. HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (per Wikipedia: "The Duke of Edinburgh, by The Queen's Order-in-Council, has 'place, pre-eminence and precedence' over all men in the Kingdom—except, where provided by Parliament, The Prince of Wales." Hence the reason why I have Phillip and Charles ranked the same yet I have placed Charles higher than his father.)
4. HRH Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (no, I didn't skip the third rank...this is how ranking is applied)
5. HRH Prince Henry of Wales
6. HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York
7. HRH The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex
8. James, Viscount Severn (son of Edward)

I will stop here as the next in line are HM's male cousines: (9) Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester and (10) Prince Edward, Duke of Kent.

So, as you can see, the Duke of York ranks below his father.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:59:45 PM by RoyalWatcher »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #342 on: February 20, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »
Selencia, as RW mentioned, the title and income from the Duchy of Lancaster automatically goes to the monarch. When Edward was no longer monarch, he was also no longer Duke of L.
 The presnet Queen is now Duke of L. BTW, not Duchess, but Duke.
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Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #343 on: February 21, 2012, 10:36:39 AM »
According to what I've read, he declined the Cambridge dukedom in favor of the lesser title of Earl of Wessex at his marriage. His desire is to be granted his father's title, which will not automatically pass to him as he is not the oldest son. So, it looks like he "settled" for an earldom while waiting for his desired dukedom.

And this poses a rather complicated situation. Charles will inherit his father's dukedom upon Phillip's death. Next in line to that title is William, Charles' son. Either Her Majesty or King Charles III will have to write letters patent to reverse the course of this title being inherited within Charles' male line and transfer it to his youngest brother, Edward. Not a smooth transition by any means.

This isn't really that complicated or requires special Letters Patent - the only restriction is that Edward cannot obtain the dukedom until AFTER the deaths of both of his parents, because (a) Phillip has to first relinquish it by his own death, and (b) the title has to merge with the Crown when the new male holder become King. 

When Phillip dies, Charles inherits the Dukedom.  When the Queen dies, Charles also inherits the Crown, and thus the Dukedom merges into the Crown and the hereditary descent ceases (the title effectively falls extinct and is available to be granted anew to Edward).

Even if both Charles and Phillip died before the Queen, William would become Duke of Edinburgh.  But again, upon the Queen's death William becomes King and the title merges and is free to go to Edward. 

The only scenario I can think of that would cause a problem is if a female inherits the Crown before the Dukedom of Edinburgh merges with it (thereby separating the succession to each).  Example:  William has a firstborn daughter, and then both William and Charles die while the Queen is still living.  In this case, William's daughter would inherit the Crown, but since the Dukedom only passes to males, it would go to Harry as the senior male heir of Phillip.  Then Harry's heirs would be the Edinburgh dukes until that male line died out (likely after Edward's death).

Unless I'm mistaken, not even the Monarch can strip a person from their claim to a hereditary peerage without an Act of Parliament, so the most likely future is that Edward simply waits until both of his parents are deceased to receive his father's title.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Edward and Sophie, Earl and Countess of Wessex
« Reply #344 on: February 21, 2012, 03:33:23 PM »
'Unless I'm mistaken, not even the Monarch can strip a person from their claim to a hereditary peerage without an Act of Parliament.'

You are quite right. Removal of peerages is a hot issue at the moment since Jeffery Archer (life peer) was convicted of perjury, and two other life peers have been convicted of expenses fraud. All the precedents involve Acts of Attainder for treason (last used in 1798) and the Titles Deprivation Act 1917.

Ann