Author Topic: AA and "this night" in the cellar.  (Read 10619 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2005, 07:42:41 PM »
Topic is not about AA being GD Anastasia but about the story AA, who was claiming to be GD Anastasia,  gave about the night of 16th in the Ipatiev House.

Does anyone have another source?  

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2005, 07:50:18 PM »
Thank you, Bear: I read your posts with the natural pleasure with I read all your interesting messages. You are a REAL researcher, and you explain things so well. I'm sure you'll be an excellent historian.  :) I had already read the story about "I fainted, everything was blue and I saw stars dancing, and there was a great roar" and "My dresses were all bloody", etc...But I thought there was other similar or different stories.  ::)

  TO DELL: I'm one of these fools who believes in AA authenticity as Anastasia...But there is a fact: she was crazy, or at least, she had a sort of mental illness. Her life was plenty of ecxentric attitudes and sometimes she was mean and injuste with people who helped her in her claims. She was hard and agressive toward Baron Von Kleist, Inspector GrŁnewald, Annie Burr Jennings, Monica Miltitz and even Gleb Botkin. You must accept this. Blair Lovell took AA way to see things, and was always supporting her point of view. But she was mentally ill, and you can't deny it.  She was like this being or not Anastasia.  Actually, I 'm sorry for her. She was not buried in a little peasant village in Polland (If she was FS, I'm also open to this possibility), but she suffered a great deal in life ...

  I'm not a fantasizyng woman: I'd rather like all Tsar family would died in Ekaterinburg. Any survivor must have suffered a lot.  :-[

RealAnastasia.
                 

Offline Annie

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2005, 08:59:24 AM »
Quote
I am new on this board, and generally find most of the
posts to be interesting and informative.

However, many posts about Anna Anderson as a 'crazy
old lady' are not based in fact, and often unbalanced.


Well, she was Fransiska Schanskowska, who was declared legally insane in 1916. In her old age, she lived in squalor with dozens of cats and dogs and didn't vacuum her floor for 5 years (this is in one of the books about her life) She and her equally eccentric husband were real characters, well known in VA as they drove about in their ranshackeled station wagon full of garbage and dogs. I don't mean to be mean by saying this, hey I'm kind of weird myself. But it is not out of line to call her mentally unstable.

Quote
We do not know what AA wanted most in life. We might
assume that she did not want a life of loneliness and
alienation.


Actually, she had become a public figure, famous, with all the good and bad that brings. Even movie stars must deal with tabloids and paparazzi.

Quote
To assume she was 'crazy' because of the
DNA reports is absurd.


It's not because of the DNA. While the DNA proved she wasn't Anastasia, we could also assume she pretended all those years because she was sinsiter, or crooked, or greedy, or mean. I don't. I think she was unstable. The DNA only proved she wasn't Anastasia, so she had to have faked it for whatever reason.

Quote
How could anyone maintain a
charade for most of their lives, with so little gain? Now
how could a person with significant mental disturbance
do so? It is unlikely.


Oh no, on the contrary, there was much more to LOSE! If she gave up her claim, not only would she be publically humiliated, she could have faced charges of filing a false claim in court and be responsible for literally millions in fees and compensation for the havoc caused by her claim.

Also, when she married John Manahan in the 60s he asked her to sign a paper swearing she was GD Anastasia. So denying her claim would have cost her her husband! She had a legion of believers and supporters, and because of this she was able to have financial support. Not talking rich, just talking having all the bills paid and not having to work! Being Anastasia was literally a career.

When she is called mentally unstable, this is the kindest way to put it. Others would call her a liar and a con artist. I do believe there were those behind her who planned to use her claim for their own gain, and they did use her. The bottom line is, she wasn't Anastasia, so someone had to tell her all those things. I personally believe, and many disgree, that by her old age she came to actually believe she was Anastasia.


Offline etonexile

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2005, 11:02:22 AM »
I should rather imagine that she believed she was AN long before old age...In fairness to FS/AA...I DO NOT think she felt she was grifting anyone....I think she was a mentally unstable person who grabbed on to the first and only life line thrown her way in life....and she hung-on for dear life....for decades....

Offline delle

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2005, 09:48:21 PM »
Quote
Welcome Delle.

It's always nice to hear a new voice.

AGRBear



Thank you for the welcome.

Delle

Offline lexi4

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2005, 10:01:01 PM »
Bear,
I have searched also for descriptions from AA about the night in the cellar and found nothing more than what you posted. She never really talked that much about it. I am not saying that AA escaped the cellar, I don't believe that. But I do think that if any of the IF escaped, it would not be something they would talk about, at least openly. Not to mention any defense mechanisms that might kick in just to help cope with the horror. Just my opinion.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline delle

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2005, 10:19:32 PM »
If there were in fact a survivor of that tragedy, they
could have suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder.
In PTSD the survivor often 'recalls' images and sensations in a very uncohesive manner. It is extremely
difficult (and often impossible) for them to integrate
what they have experienced-they fail to recover from
the traumatic event. Their experience becomes 'frozen.'

This is not to say that AA in fact experienced this event.
Only to clarify that any survivor-if there were one or
more, could have been affected for the rest of their
lives by the PTSD, and the inability to provide a narrative
of the events.

Delle

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2005, 12:16:52 PM »
A person who has suffered a terrible trauma get stuck mentally and they can't seem to get away from that time frame and it seems they can't progress to the next stage of their life, even though time passes.

I've seen this happen to a person I know.  It's like this person's life is connected to a rubber band.  The person goes foreward then suddenly is snapped  backward into time, grows depressed, and has to work out of the depression which can take a hour or a year.  It's terrible to watch because no one can help.

The mind is such a mysterious place and sometimes, in this kind of case I mention,  it's a person's hell.  I've often thought AA's world was a lot like my friends.  

It isn't the same as being bi-polar, although, it does have many of the same symtoms.

Then, there is the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being the one who lived while the others perished.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2005, 12:47:37 PM »
Good points bear. I hadn't even thought about the guilt that would be associated with something like that.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline delle

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2005, 07:09:40 PM »
Quote
A person who has suffered a terrible trauma get stuck mentally and they can't seem to get away from that time frame and it seems they can't progress to the next stage of their life, even though time passes.

I've seen this happen to a person I know. †It's like this person's life is connected to a rubber band. †The person goes foreward then suddenly is snapped †backward into time, grows depressed, and has to work out of the depression which can take a hour or a year. †It's terrible to watch because no one can help.

The mind is such a mysterious place and sometimes, in this kind of case I mention, †it's a person's hell. †I've often thought AA's world was a lot like my friends. †

It isn't the same as being bi-polar, although, it does have many of the same symtoms.

Then, there is the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being the one who lived while the others perished.

AGRBear



Great points. The analogy of the rubber band is an
excellent one. The person gets pulled back to the trauma repeatedly, and the suffering is re-traumatizing.

Also, the point about survivor guilt is a very good one.
This often can happen when there is no way to actually
work out emotionally and cognitively what has happened, and the more violent incidents often can
cause this.

With PTSD, there is a significantly higher rate of chronic
depression, and other disorders.

I have seen the effects in individuals I've known, and
I am a therapist.

Delle

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2005, 09:00:19 PM »
Hi again, Delle:

                            Actually I steel believe in AA, and I suppose her trauma most have cause her to not tell what she suffered in this cellar (If she was Anastasia, of course), or to tell is in a very weird way.

                             I don't recall exactly in which TV show about AA I hear it, but I remember her, saying, almost in tears something over the lines of: "...It was awful...I can't tell you what happened...It's so dirty...so awful...please, no..." She clearly couldn't bear all her sufferings back then.  Maybe it was "the cellar trauma", perhaps, she was FS and she was recalling the accident where a work friend died. She had a trauma, anyway.

                               When I read AA statement in Blair Lovell book (I mean when she said "there was no massacre") the first thought I have was clearly: " There was a massacre in Ekaterinbourg; her own mind was denying it, for she didn't want this to happen..." Of course, you must remember very well AA words speaking about her escape: "I leave my mother behind...I left my mother alone...". Did you remember which family member she called out when she had her last attack in Germany: "Mama! Mama! Where is my mother?" And did you remember which member of her family she named when Tatiana Botkina give her a Photo Album about IF: "My Mother! My Mother!".

              She had a trauma...And whoever she was, she suffered a lot in her life.

RealAnastasia.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2005, 09:05:01 PM »
You said it better than I, Bear: AA "...had the guilt of being a survivor and all the guilt of being one who lived while the others perished..." I think she was guilty especially concerning her mother's fate. Whoever her mother was, I suppose that's true.

RealAnastasia.

Offline etonexile

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2005, 10:21:05 AM »
Orrrrrr...she was a mad woman who spent most of her adult life in a fantasy world....I'm sure she used every fibre of her being to "know"and "feel" what happened in that cellar....these "delusions-of grandeur"...were all she had...

And I know it annoys some folk...but one can't ignore the science...the independant testing of  3...yes,3...labs for DNA showed that AA had "NO" relation to known family of the IF...0...zilch...nada...none...But her DNA did match known relations of FS...Do we see...?

It's like finding a finger print on a glass at a crime scene and just saying..."No,I think we should just ignore that evidence....because I have this..."Feeling"....

Offline lexi4

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2005, 11:57:02 AM »
Quote
Orrrrrr...she was a mad woman who spent most of her adult life in a fantasy world....I'm sure she used every fibre of her being to "know"and "feel" what happened in that cellar....these "delusions-of grandeur"...were all she had...

And I know it annoys some folk...but one can't ignore the science...the independant testing of †3...yes,3...labs for DNA showed that AA had "NO" relation to known family of the IF...0...zilch...nada...none...But her DNA did match known relations of FS...Do we see...?

It's like finding a finger print on a glass at a crime scene and just saying..."No,I think we should just ignore that evidence....because I have this..."Feeling"....


Well said. There can be no doubt that AA was not AN. So any comments that AA made about the night in the cellar would have come from her imagination. Pure fantasy.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: AA and "this night" in the cellar.
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2005, 12:40:16 PM »
We are talking about AA and what has been reported that she told people about the night in the basement.....

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152