Author Topic: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick  (Read 260989 times)

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Mgmstl

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2005, 08:23:30 PM »
Thanks for the photos.  I have read VL's memoirs some years I ago, don't have it in my collection.  I am suprised at A.F. not attending.  Thanks for correcting my misconception.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2005, 08:53:28 AM »
Thanks GDella and everyone for the pictures. Is the dining celebration a photo or drawing? Also, would the guests have conversed in German?
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Offline otmafan

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2005, 10:40:49 AM »
This is a little "off-topic" but I found this picture on ebay quite some time ago, and I think it's a great picture.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by otmafan »

Offline Marlene

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2005, 01:06:57 PM »
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Thanks GDella and everyone for the pictures. Is the dining celebration a photo or drawing? Also, would the guests have conversed in German?


there were no photos of VL's wedding - everything is a sketch.  I would guess that many guests spoke German, it depended on who you were sitting next to, I guess.
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Offline Marlene

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2005, 01:13:55 PM »
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I found a sketch of Victoria Luise's wedding.Very lovely.



Let's try to recognize all famous characters.Queen Mary at the far left  - dignified as always. Certainly bride and bridegroom are kneeling in the centre. In front of Queen Mary - Nikolai II or George V? Dona and Kaiser by his left side? Or where is Dona?
A man at far right (in profile) could be Prince Heinrich?

Any ideas?

I have this sketch on a postcard (the sketch originally appeared in the Berliner Illustrierte).    On the left - the three are the duke of Cumberland, the Kaiserin, and George V.  
Nicholas II is on the right in front of Queen Mary.  The Duchess of Cumberland is next to the Kaiser.
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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2005, 05:33:39 AM »
Thanks,Ella and Marlene, for clarifying!  :)  Duchess of Cumberland is like not herself   ;)

Offline Marlene

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2005, 09:40:28 AM »
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Thanks,Ella and Marlene, for clarifying!  :)  Duchess of Cumberland is like not herself   ;)


we are relying on the artist's rendition
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2005, 02:23:01 PM »
Judging from the appearance of Viktoria Luise, I am guessing she is about 7 years old in the photo. Yes? If so, the photo would be vintage 1899 or so.
Did VL have a positive relationship with her grandmother Vicky? Dona looks so much older than a "Mom" and I am wondering if VL felt she had two grandmothers.
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Offline Marlene

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2005, 03:31:56 PM »
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Judging from the appearance of Viktoria Luise, I am guessing she is about 7 years old in the photo. Yes? If so, the photo would be vintage 1899 or so.
Did VL have a positive relationship with her grandmother Vicky? Dona looks so much older than a "Mom" and I am wondering if VL felt she had two grandmothers.



As Wilhelm had a difficult and estranged relationship with his mother,  it is unlikely that his children spent much time with her.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2005, 01:10:05 AM »
According to VL's memoirs, no. She mentions her only in a few pages and it's not very postitive. She talks of Vicky being overly strict with Wilhelm's children--much more so she says than with her other grandchildren--and the bad way his father was treated. She doesn't lay all the blame on Vicky but goes into detail about how he's been maligned by the publication of Vicky's letters which were 'stolen' by Ponsonby rather than handed over. It's not an unduly harsh portrait of her, but there's no empathy or affection either. It seems that they saw each other only rarely and the visits were rather tense.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2005, 11:42:20 AM »
What a shame. Then, Vicky's legacy of caring and social and political ideals really did end with her Fritz's passing and her own death. Even I would admit that Ponsoby's means of "sneaking" out the letters was not quite up and up, it would have been so historically beneficial for VL to have taken the high road and attempted to add reasons for the family's issues rather than take sides. Did VL ever rekindle a relatoinship with the Windsors? I don't think she was invited to Princess Margaret or Annes' weddings.

Also, I am still intertested if anyone knows if the contingent of guests for VLs wedding were accomodated at the Schloss or Adlon Hotel? The Adlon claims that George and Mary stayed there and I suspect it was the occasion of the wedding. Thanks!
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Mgmstl

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2005, 12:37:30 PM »
According to "An Uncommon Woman" by Hanna Pakula, an EXCELLENT book, which I have unfortunately packed away,  all Ponsonby was doing was carrying out the wishes and request of the Empress Dowager.

It was during KE VII's last visit to his much beloved sister, she was wracked with the pain from the cancer, and she had a private audience with Ponsonby where she laid out her plans to have her letters and papers taken out of Germany, as she remembered what happened after her husband died at the Neues Palace, when William had his troops surround the house and they searched for his father's papers, looking for evidence of his Mother's "traitorous" activities against Germany.  Unfortunately he found none, during Fritz & Vicky's visit to England during QV's jubilee, they brought his papers to Windsor and deposited them in the archives there.   Vicky & her daughters were held captive in their home while William's soldiers tore apart the palace in search for papers.  She knew very well what would happen when she died.  

Being the intelligent woman she was, Vicky took the opportunity to ask Ponsonby to courier the letters secretly out of Germany and William's reach, and he did so.  I believe he stated that two couriers or more came to his doors at midnight after his visit with the Empress, bearing crates marked "china, fragile handle with care", or something to that effect.  When leaving Germany he was worried William's guards would search the luggage and inspect the boxes, however they did not, and he took the letters to England with him as requested.

While it may not have been on the up & up, had they not been taken to England, they probably would have been destroyed by William.   After Vicky's death he did the same thing as he did when his father died cordoned off, surrounded & searched her home for papers.

I cannot remember if or when he found out that both sets of his parents papers resided at Windsor.  When
Vicky's letters were published some years after WW I, when the Kaiser, assigned to obscurity, and still villified by many, tried to stop their publication & was unsuccesful and wrote a foreward to a version of the book.

I do know that Vicky did wish for a closer relationship with her grandchildren through William, however, William & Dona did not want her to influence their children at all, so they kept them at a distance, but she did have close relationships with Feo, Margaret's children, Sophie's children, and Henry & Irene's sons.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2005, 09:18:45 PM »
I don't doubt that VL's memories were somewhat biased--she loved her father very much. She does contend though that Ponsonby embellished the story of how the letters were taken out and that version has passed into history. She takes several of his remarks about the Kaiser's whereabouts during the affair and says that newspaper accounts of the day prove he wasn't even at Friedrichshof at the time. That sort of thing. However it came about though and whoever was the villain of the piece, it's been great for us royal devotees and historians that the letters weren't destroyed and so much of them has been made public. Burning of letters *shudder*. Oh when I think of what Beatrice did and EVII and Alexandra got rid of a lot too. I'd love to read some of those letters to see what Alexandra may have really felt about some of Bertie's actions. You just think how much of our understanding of events and the personalities involved could be tilted in some way because these important pieces of historical evidence are gone forever.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2005, 09:28:10 PM »
Amen! And it seems there is a renewed interest in looking beyond the hard and fast data we have to what might be in the missing documentations. Not only the missing information but also a reassessment of the data we have.
One must raise an eyebrow considering what could have been so concerning to cause people to burn forever any record.
Thus, the upcoming study group of a consortium of Germans, Finns, and Israelis who are focusing on the Wilhelmine Era will be most interesting.
HerrKaiser

Mgmstl

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Re: Victoria Louise, Duchess of Brunswick
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2005, 10:58:07 PM »
After reading a couple of accounts of what happened after Fritz died, I tend to believe Ponsonby.  Vicky knew that her only legacy to history & the world about what happened would be her letters.

Of course Victoria Louise would not have been old enough at the time to be involved in the incident. She was always protective of her fathers memory, and what she remembered would have been influenced by her father's side of the issue.

I am sure that those letters would not have made out oof Germany without the Empress's specific directions, and the complicity of Ponsonby or her brother E VII, nor would they have seen the light of day again.

It is lamentable that Q.A. & Pcss Beatrice destroyed the correspondence of  Q.V & of E VII, what a delight it would be to read them.  However we must congratulate the Empress Dowager's foresight, of knowing what would happen to her voluminous correspondence.