Author Topic: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy  (Read 53268 times)

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Offline PreDoc

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Hello, this is my first post here and I'm glad I found this forum.  I have had this question for quite some time and this is the first place I have found that might be able to answer it.

Apparently gay marriage will become legal in Spain within a matter of weeks/months.  This law will affect all citizens, royal and otherwise.

So here is my (hypothetical) question ...

if a member of the Spanish family married a member of her/his own sex, what would the courtesy title of her/his new spouse be?

It has perplexed me for months now.  I have tried to find the answer to this question by researching other kingdoms with similar laws (Holland, Belgium) but am having no luck.

Thanks!

Offline Martyn

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 12:20:03 PM »
What a fascinating question.  I am surprised that no one has ventured forth to speculate what might happen in this eventuality - perhaps everyone is grappling with the concept (I know that I am)!

I suupose that it would very much depend on the status of the royal personage in question.......

I still can't imagine what would have to be gone through just to get to the public admission of the hypothetical royal person's sexuality, let alone how the style and title of the potential spouse might be decided......

Fascinating nonetheless.......Any suggestions?
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Offline umigon

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 12:38:47 PM »
Hi!

I can't believe I hadn't seen this thread!

Well, our Constitution (1978) says nothing about what should be done if that occured as, when it was written, no one could even imagine that 27 years later homosexual marriages would be approved by the Cortes.

The Spanish writer Juan Balansó wrote in his book ''Los diamantes de la Corona'' that if the heir to the Spanish throne married a person of his or her own sex, in the case of two males, the heir would become King of Spain and his partner, Prince Consort. If the case were two females, it would be the Queen of Spain and the Queen Consort, unless the Constitution was changed in order to make this discrimination disappear.

When Balansó wrote this he was supposing it (he died in 2003), so I think that if we had a gay King or Queen there would be a lot of trouble if they decided to marry someone of their own sex. I imagine that he or she would just decide to remain unmarried and live happily with a partner without being married. I think that would be the most sensible option as a gay marriage within Royalty could mean the end of the monarchy.

But about the titles, considering what is said in the Constitution, the titles would be H.R.H the King of Spain and the Prince Consort or H.R.H the Queen of Spain and the Queen Consort. Well, sounds funny, doesn't it?
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Offline TJ Jones

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 08:25:34 PM »
I dont think that will ever happen. If is member of the Spanish Royal family did marry someone of the same sex I think they would loose their title. Even though the world has changed I just cant see it happening. A woman and a woman or man man cant make heirs. The house laws might not say anything about this beacause its probably considered a non issue, because of the low chance of it actually happening, not the gay royal part but, the part of a gay royal having a same sex spouse. I mean its their duty to marry the opposite sex and have heirs.
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Offline TJ Jones

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 08:27:24 PM »
I think it could happen in Japan.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 08:35:04 PM »
Why Japan ?
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Offline nerdycool

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 02:42:19 AM »
I would also like to know why Japan. Out of all the monarchies, I would think that the Chrysanthemums would be just about the last to allow something like same sex marriages in their royal family.

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 06:48:52 AM »
Quote
I would also like to know why Japan. Out of all the monarchies, I would think that the Chrysanthemums would be just about the last to allow something like same sex marriages in their royal family.


Absolutely.   Possibly more bound by tradition and etiquette than any other royal house.......

I must admit that the notion of a monarch with a same sex partner is quite hard to grapple with, but having said that, who in Britain 30 years ago would have imagined that the heir to the throne might marry his divorced mistress?  Times change and so do mores......

TJ does have a point though abpout the begetting of heirs and the continuation of the line; having said that, there is usually some relative  to succeed in the absence of legitimate issue.....
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 09:08:12 AM »
Exactly, Martin. This subject is being discussed quite thoroughly on  the ATR board, and that same point has been made.  Royal families always seem to have an heir  somewhere to bring up if necessary. Especially with the abolition of male primogeniture,  there should be no problem about that. Very few monarchies go for very long with direct father/son succession.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Robert_Hall »
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 01:28:44 PM »
Quote

Absolutely.   Possibly more bound by tradition and etiquette than any other royal house.......

I must admit that the notion of a monarch with a same sex partner is quite hard to grapple with, but having said that, who in Britain 30 years ago would have imagined that the heir to the throne might marry his divorced mistress?  Times change and so do mores......

TJ does have a point though abpout the begetting of heirs and the continuation of the line; having said that, there is usually some relative  to succeed in the absence of legitimate issue.....


It really dosen't matter if there is no "Salic Law".  Even if David & Wallis would have assumed the Throne, we would still have our much beloved & respected QEII.

Marlene and I have "tusselled" over this Japaneese question on numerous occassions and I predict Japan will ditch "salic law" so the little Imperial Princess may assume the throne.  

The Japaneese people are very progressive as are the politicians.  The "people" just go on about their business and never would think to put anyone in a situtation to "lose face" about something as trivial & non polite conversation as a person's sexual preferences.

It is the civil servants and Imperial Household that are stuck in a time warp.  

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2005, 01:40:51 PM »
There is no such thing as "Salic law" in Japan. It is unheard of there. The succession is set by the constitution. It is not house law nor is it traditional or religous. It can [and most likely will] be changed by constitutional ways and means.
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2005, 01:57:14 PM »
Quote
There is no such thing as "Salic law" in Japan. It is unheard of there. The succession is set by the constitution. It is not house law nor is it traditional or religous. It can [and most likely will] be changed by constitutional ways and means.


Robert,

I use "Salic Law" as a generic term for barring succession to females and through females.

Please pardon me, I live in Florida.

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Offline TJ Jones

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2005, 02:24:50 PM »
Ok, now I said Japan because male lovers was very normal among the upper class. I have read historical references supporting this.


“In our empire of Japan this way flourished from the time of the great master Kobo. In the abbeys of Kyoto and Kamakura, and in the world of the nobles and the warriors, lovers would swear perfect and eternal love relying on no more than their mutual good will. Whether their partners were noble or common, rich or poor, was absolutely of no importance… In all these case they were greatly moved by the spirit of this way. This way must be truly respected, and it must never be permitted to disappear.”

“A young man should test an older man for at least five years, and if he is assured of that person’s intentions, then he too should request the relationship… If the younger man can devote himself and get into the situation for five or six years then it will not be unsuitable.”

Japan did not start to look down on homosexualty untill they were introduced to "western" values.

Thus Western influence had a decisive role to play in this reversal of fortune. From their very first contacts with the remote island empire, European explorers and merchants bristled at the “loose morals” and “depravity” of their hosts. The Portuguese writer Luis Frois, in his Historia do Japao, documents an encounter in 1550 between the party of Jesuit friar Francis Xavier and the daimyo of Yamaguchi, Ouchi Yoshitaka:

“The lord welcomed them warmly and said that he would like to hear the new doctrine of the kirishitan’ (Christians). Brother Juan Fernandez read in a loud voice from a notebook in which were translated into Japanese the account of the Creation and the Ten Commandments. Having touched on the sin of idolatry and on the other faults committed by the Japanese, he arrived at the sin of Sodom, which he described as ‘something so abominable that it is more unclean than the pig and more low than the dog and other animals without reason’. Yoshitaka then seemed to be angered and made a sign for them to go out. But the king made not a word of reply, and Fernandez believed that he would order them to be killed.”

Though the slowly increasing presence of Christian missionaries lent support to those who disapproved of male love practices, it was not until the Meiji restoration of 1867, a direct result of the opening of Japan carried out under the threat of American guns in 1854, that Western Christian morality began to dominate Japanese thought, and wakashudo went into its final eclipse.

“Without our noticing it this cultural tradition has been lost to us… When we were schoolboys we often heard of an affair in which two students had quarreled on account of a beautiful young boy and had ended by drawing knives... But since the new era of Taisho (1912–1926) we no longer hear of this kind of thing. The shudo which had clung on to life has now reached its end.”


Not to say that this can and will happen today. I just had this in mind when I said "I think it could happen in Japan". The Japanese are very open minded about things like homosexuality its not hard to find a cartoon "anime" aimed at young children with gay characters.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2002, 03:19:38 AM by Moonlight_Densetsu »
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2005, 02:32:44 PM »
All this is true, TJ, and your source is excellent. However, it was also the norm to have a wife, and perhaps concubines, solely for producing heirs.
In my opinion, the family of any prospective mate for an Imperial Family member is more important than even the sex !  The term "commoner" is very misleading in Japan.
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Offline TampaBay

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Re: Titles, orders, royal law, regalia & rituals of the Spanish monarchy
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2005, 03:29:40 PM »
Quote


The term "commoner" is very misleading in Japan.


Lord Hall, Sir Robert,

Please elaborate :o.  

I thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge ;).

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