Author Topic: identification  (Read 227292 times)

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Offline Stasie

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Re: identification
« Reply #180 on: July 31, 2007, 08:48:26 PM »
Does anyone know who the two boys are in this pic, and which Grand Duchess is in the pic. I think its Marie:

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: identification
« Reply #181 on: July 31, 2007, 08:54:19 PM »
They look like Ernie's sons, George Donatus (Don) and Louis. I think I've seen a photo of them in those outfits.
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: identification
« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2007, 09:53:24 PM »
Based on her proportions and the length of her hair, I think it's Maria, but it could possibly be Olga as well. It's hard to be sure without another grand duchess to compare height and skirt length. ;)
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Offline jmjjmjjmj

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Re: identification
« Reply #183 on: August 01, 2007, 12:03:24 PM »
I recently acquired in Paris a set of three original photographs of the Vladimirovichi in a folding leather display portfolio. The photographs can be dated to about 1885-6 because of the apparent age of their youngest child, G.D. Helena, who appears to be 3 or 4.

The photograph in the middle is of G.D. Vladimir and his wife. The one on the right is the Grand Duchess and her four children (the back was labeled in French with the names and titles and Vladimir spelled with a “W”).

The one on the left appears to have the three Vladimirovichi boys with two other male adults. The one in the white uniform looks to me like Tsar Alexander, though his beard is shorter than I have seen it otherwise. The other one I first guessed to be G.D. Pavel. However, the Hussar uniform he is wearing is not decorated with the cords that I have otherwise seen in pictures of G.D. Pavel. Also, the man in the photo has less hair on his forehead than I have seen in photos of Pavel.

The photos have an embossed old-style cyrillic word at the bottom, presumably the name of photographic studio. In transliterated Russian it appears to me to be: Levtuxii . Also, the leather portfolio has the following on the back: Tonnel, 12 rue de la Paix, Paris. I checked and there is no company of that name presently at the address mentioned.

The provenance of the photos is also somewhat of a mystery.

The dealer is reputable, someone I met originally on a previous trip to Paris eight years ago. He is almost 90 and of Russian origin, though he left Russia in the 1960s. He told me he purchased them around 1970 in Rome from a relative (variously granddaughter or niece) of the former governess of G.D. Olga, the dowager Queen of Greece who was a daughter of G.D. Konstantin Nikolaevich. He also gave me reason on at least one of my visits to conclude that they had originally belonged to the Olga herself.

The specifics differed slightly during the three times I visited him, but that can be understood given his age and health and the fact that his daughter was on one occasion prompting him to recite again the provenance.

One corroborating fact is that eight years ago he had for sale a large leather portfolio containing two oval glass-covered photographs of G.D. Pavel and his first wife, Alexandra of Greece, who was Queen Olga’s daughter. (I foolishly delayed my decision to purchase it for a month during which it sold to someone else). He told me that all his Russian imperial artifacts came from this one purchase).

All that being said, why would Queen Olga’s governess (or perhaps more likely Queen Olga herself) have had three photos of the Vladimirovichi? Perhaps it was normal for members of the Imperial Family to share photos back and forth.

Any help identifying/confirming my identification as well as speculation on their provenance would be very much appreciated.

Here are copies of the photographs:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212293/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212233/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975211991/

The photos in their casing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212195/

The writing on the back:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212055/

Has anyone ever come across these photos before?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: identification
« Reply #184 on: August 01, 2007, 12:19:48 PM »
What a wonderful group you obtained!

I'm not sure about the one photo with the 2 men and the Vladimir children--neither adult male looks like any member of the family I know of (though I'm not an expert on some of the lesser-known branches) but the one male is definitely not Alexander III. I don't think the bald man is Paul--his head was shaped differently.

The middle photo is definitely Vladimir & Miechen and the other is Miechen with her children.

I could see how Olga's governess could end up with the photos--Queen Olga was very close to her Russian relatives and photos were always swapped back and forth, and not just with the Romanovs. The governess could have even been given the photos herself directly from the Vladimirs. Many members of royal Households, especially those who were in closer contact with the royal families, were given photos of those royals they encountered. Many were even signed.
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Offline Svetabel

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Re: identification
« Reply #185 on: August 01, 2007, 12:38:57 PM »
What a wonderful group you obtained!

I'm not sure about the one photo with the 2 men and the Vladimir children--neither adult male looks like any member of the family I know of (though I'm not an expert on some of the lesser-known branches) but the one male is definitely not Alexander III. I don't think the bald man is Paul--his head was shaped differently.



As I've answered in the another thread the man at left is VERY much like GD Friedrich Franz III, brother of Gdss Maria Pavlovna...The other man could be also a relative of the Grand Duchess.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: identification
« Reply #186 on: August 01, 2007, 09:33:48 PM »
Yes, I replied to that one the other thread.  :) I think that you're probably right about it being Miechen's brother.  I think there's going to be some cross-posting with the question being on 2 threads.
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Offline charley

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Re: identification
« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2007, 08:31:39 PM »


Oh My goodness, I actually got a picture to post. I am certainly on my way.  :) Who is this young child in this picture?  I thought Lili Dehn's child, but her child was born in 1908, so this child is to young. Her other children were not born until she left the country. Also, has anyone zoomed in on this picture. The girl who is second from the left looks very strange. Her nose is very, very long and, to me, it does not really look like any of the Grand Duchesses.

Offline charley

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Re: identification
« Reply #188 on: August 04, 2007, 09:17:50 PM »


These are closeups.

Offline charley

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Re: identification
« Reply #189 on: August 04, 2007, 09:19:12 PM »
Now I need to figure out how to make my "closeups" bigger.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: identification
« Reply #190 on: August 04, 2007, 10:53:46 PM »
The photo was taken in Tobolsk in 1917 or 1918. I don't know who the child is, but the GD second from right is Olga. (It's just a shadow that makes her nose look so long.) Click here for a larger version.
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Offline charley

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Re: identification
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2007, 09:24:17 PM »
Does anyone think it strange that this small child is with the IF when they are under captivity? The family obviously knows the child well from the way it sits in the picture. Why would they have a small child with them?

Offline Sarushka

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Re: identification
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2007, 09:37:40 PM »
I can clearly see Olga and Anastasia in this pic, but it the other girl Marie or Tatiana?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/otmaa/OTA/aot-1.jpg

It's Maria, Olga, and Anastasia.

Does anyone think it strange that this small child is with the IF when they are under captivity? The family obviously knows the child well from the way it sits in the picture. Why would they have a small child with them?

I have never heard of a youngster that age staying with the IF or any of their retinue in exile. In Tobolsk, it appears that the IF was occasionally allowed outside the fence around the governor's mansion, so I would guess the child is a resident of the town who was deemed young and harmless enough to pose with the family. Here's another photo, perhaps with the same child:

THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline charley

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Re: identification
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2007, 09:48:52 PM »


Where did this photo come from? I haven't seen it before. In the other picture, it doesn't look like the child is posing, but actually hanging out with them. This picture was taken inside the stockade fence. I would think with all the monotony of captivity, that one of the family members would have mentioned in their diary, that they played with a cute little child from the town. They mention other interactions, such as the nuns bringing the eggs from the town, etc. Why not mention this and why wouldn't the mother want to pose with the family as well? Still seems odd to me. Do you have any other pictures of this child?

Offline Sarushka

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Re: identification
« Reply #194 on: August 06, 2007, 09:23:20 AM »
Where did this photo come from? I haven't seen it before. In the other picture, it doesn't look like the child is posing, but actually hanging out with them. This picture was taken inside the stockade fence. I would think with all the monotony of captivity, that one of the family members would have mentioned in their diary, that they played with a cute little child from the town. They mention other interactions, such as the nuns bringing the eggs from the town, etc. Why not mention this and why wouldn't the mother want to pose with the family as well? Still seems odd to me. Do you have any other pictures of this child?

Both of the photos with that child appear in Nicholas II: The Last Tsar, by Marvin Lyons. The book offers no explanation for the child's presence, and the captions say only that it is "an unidentified child." Those are the only photos I'm aware of.

I can understand a parent being reluctant to pose with the exiled imperial family. It may have been cute and harmless for a toddler to be photographed with a bald grand duchess, but perhaps not wise for an adult to link him or herself with the overthrown regime. Or perhaps a passing child was lifted over the fence to play -- the grand duchesses did love to fuss over little children, and the fence was not prohibitively high -- but an adult was not allowed in.

Our main source for info during the IF's captivity is Alix's diary, and that may explain why there's no mention of the child in the existing record. Alix often stayed indoors during the alloted exercise period, and perhaps never met the child. I would imagine the grand duchesses would have written about it in their diaries, but to my knowledge none of their diaries from captivity have survived.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King