Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 296616 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2005, 01:01:51 PM »
It's funny but I always realized how much the Dowager Empress Maria disliked Alexandra but I never really thought about her betraying Nicholas II.   However, she must have thought about whom she would have had to be working with if something happen to Nicholas II...    Wasn't there  a long period of time that GD Michael wasn't given any status after his marriage to Natashia....  And, of course there was Alexei illness which might prevent him from ever ruling....  I guess GD Kyril was second to Alexei for a time... or, am I wrong in this assumption?  Although I know very little about GD Kyril,  he doesn't appear to be very popular.  And, it seems everyone's head always turns toward Kyril when the subject of betrayl pops up.  How close was DowEmp Maria with GD Kyril?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2005, 03:42:29 PM »
I'm ashamed to say I'm not very well-informed on Empress Marie.  Most of what I know about her is through my readings on others who were connected to her.

I do know that her immediate family must have been a disappointment to her.  Nicholas married against her wishes and wound up with a wife whom Marie felt was a real contributor to the destruction of the dynasty.

Michael became infatuated with another man's wife (who had already divorced a first husband) and conducted a liaison with her under the cover of a friendship with her husband.  Even by the racy standards of St. Petersburg society, that thinly-disguised cuckolding of the husband was a bit much.

Grand Duchess Olga enabled Michael's pursuit of the affair with Natasha by accompanying them on many outings to provide a semblance of propriety . . . through which everyone saw.  Of course, Olga herself had been forced into a bad marriage and was conducting an affair with one of her husband's retainers, who had been put on her husband's staff with the knowledge of all participants for just that purpose.  (The husband was gay and apparently sympathetic to Olga's need for physical affection from some quarter.)  Olga later divorced her husband to marry her beloved Colonel.

George was a semi-invalid throughout his brief adult life who died of tuberculosis.

It was a sorry run of raw material for filling the greatest throne on earth at a critical junction in its history.  Indeed, Nicholas might have been the best of the lot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline RichC

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2005, 04:24:02 PM »
I've never been a big fan of Empress Marie.  She seems to have cared most about having a good time and living a life of unparalleled luxury. For someone who insisted on asserting her right to precedence over Alexandra to the point of provoking a public scandal (Marie was the first Empress to insist on this right) she spent an AWFUL lot of time away from Russia after the death of Alexander III.  For all her alleged talents in carrying out her public duties as Empress or later, Dowager Empress, she seems to have actually done precious little of anything during Nicholas' reign.

Her treatment of her daughter, Olga Alexandrovna, was disgusting.  When Nicholas heard about the arranged marriage to Peter of Oldenburg, he honestly thought it was a joke.  Yet the abuse Olga endured is blithely glossed over while Alexandra's supposed mistreatment of her own children is blown out of proportion, or just made up out of thin air.

Make no mistake, Marie did suffer incredible tragedy in her life.  Four of her children and five of her grandchildren pre-deceased her, seven of them by violence.  But she only seems to have cared for those who were of royal blood.  When she died in 1928, she left no provision in her will for Michael's impoverished son or widow.  That's mean.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2005, 05:42:28 PM »
Ok. Back to who bertayed Nicholas. Tsarfan's post  Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #11 on: 20. Jun 2005 at 06:32 » really sums it up well.
I think it was pretty obvious that the people could no longer endure the Romanov's. And with good reason.
That being said, it seems that to survive few were left with a choice but to betray him. He had done little to deserve the loyalty or respect of the people. imho
Just because he was the tsar, did not entitle him to respect and loyalty. I don't think he ever understood that.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2005, 05:47:47 PM »
Can't say I like her any better than you do, RichC.

Russia was in sad hands with the last generations of Romanovs.  That's why I find it so hard to talk in terms of betraying that family.  They essentially presented monarchists with a choice between supporting Romanov family hubris or supporting effective government.

I find it hard to impeach the latter choice.

And, please, folks . . . don't take this to mean I think the Bolsheviks brought effective government.  But the ministers and generals who abandoned Nicholas in March 1917 were dealing with a tsar who had left the chaotic domestic affairs of their country in the hands of a mentally-unstable woman taking advice from an inscrutable holy man of indecipherable motives.  What real choice did they have if they cared for their country?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2005, 05:55:20 PM »
Quote
Can't say I like her any better than you do, RichC.

Russia was in sad hands with the last generatrions of Romanovs.  That's why I find it so hard to talk in terms of betraying that family.  They essentially presented monarchists with a choice of supporting Romanov family hubris or supporting effective government.

I find it hard to impeach the latter choice.

And, please, folks . . . don't take this to mean I think the Bolsheviks brought effective government.  But the ministers and generals who abandoned Nicholas in March 1917 were dealing with a tsar who had left the chaotic domestic affairs of their country in the hands of a mentally-unstable woman taking advice from an inscrutable holy man of indecipherable motives.  What real choice did they have if they cared for their country?


In a word? None
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Offline RichC

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2005, 07:29:55 PM »
Quote
Can't say I like her any better than you do, RichC.

Russia was in sad hands with the last generations of Romanovs.  That's why I find it so hard to talk in terms of betraying that family.  They essentially presented monarchists with a choice of supporting Romanov family hubris or supporting effective government.

I find it hard to impeach the latter choice.

And, please, folks . . . don't take this to mean I think the Bolsheviks brought effective government.  But the ministers and generals who abandoned Nicholas in March 1917 were dealing with a tsar who had left the chaotic domestic affairs of their country in the hands of a mentally-unstable woman taking advice from an inscrutable holy man of indecipherable motives.  What real choice did they have if they cared for their country?


Actually, I remember reading somewhere that some scholar was advancing the theory that the latter 19th/ early 20th century crop of European royals were, as a lot, far less intelligent than their forebears and this was one of the causes of the cataclysm which rocked Europe in the early 20th century.  Perhaps the gene pool just exhausted itself through lack of fresh blood....

But, on the other hand, perhaps it had something to do with the way royals were educated at the time with all the emphasis being on presentation and little time spent teaching critical thinking in an increasingly complex world.

I do agree with you, Tsarfan, that of Marie and Alexander's children, Nicholas was probably the best of the bunch.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2005, 09:36:43 PM »
Quote
Actually, I remember reading somewhere that some scholar was advancing the theory that the latter 19th/ early 20th century crop of European royals were, as a lot, far less intelligent than their forebears and this was one of the causes of the cataclysm which rocked Europe in the early 20th century.  Perhaps the gene pool just exhausted itself through lack of fresh blood....


I've heard that theory, too.

Maurice Paelologue (the French Ambassador to Russia) reported a conversation he had at a party in March 1916 with an unnamed Russian princess.  She was explaining to him the Russian view of Fate and how it entrapped Nicholas:

"Take the Emperor, for example.  Isn't he patently predestined to ruin Russia?  Aren't you struck by his ill-luck?  Could any reign have been richer in miscalculations, failures and calamities?"

"As to the Empress, do you know of any figure more baleful and accursed even in classical tragedy?  And that other, the loathsome ruffian whose name I won't utter! . . . . How can you explain the fact that at such a crisis in history these three incongruous and dull-witted beings hold the destinies of the world's largest empire in their hands?"

Such was the view of Nicholas' intelligence and reign being openly discussed in the salons of St. Petersburg with officials of foreign governments.

Shortly before this conversation, Paleologue had been invited to the Alexander Palace for an informal evening of watching French war footage with the tsar and his family.  After being caught alone with the empress for twenty minutes while the tsar went to another room for a smoke, Paleologue found her a "neurotic woman" who gazed blankly into the distance when he tried to talk to her on matters of substance.  He came away horrified that such a person stood at the center of power in Russia during such a crisis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2005, 10:10:45 PM »
After reading the last two posts, I am just more convinced that Russia was ripe for revolution.
The post by Tsarfan, which recounts the conversation of the Russian princess, shows how strong the belief in predestinatio/fate was a part of the psyche. How often have we read things written by N or A that said "God has seen fit to..." It was as if the IF believed they had aboslutely no control of their fate/destiny because it was all preordained by god. Yet another reason for their ineffectiveness, imho.
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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2005, 09:00:28 AM »
One other "problem" was really the fact that the Russian monarchy particularly was rigidly locked into rules, forms, customs and mind-set from the late 18th to early 19th century. It was the sociological progress of Western Europe into the 20 century that the monarchy could not comprehend nor bother to deal with.  "My father did it this way, as did his father, etc etc"

Offline Belochka

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2005, 02:57:18 AM »
Yes indeed, Court protocol was rigid.

However the idea that father simply followed father, can be challenged.

Alexander III did not accept his father's constitutional reforms, and chose to destroy the critical document bearing Alexander II's signature; on the day he came to power.

Unlike Alexander III, Nikolai conceeded however reluctantly, that formation of a Duma was permissable, with proportional male representation.

Unlike Nikolai, his father was intolerant of contradiction and held his autocratic rule with a very tight fist.

Nikolai was the first Emperor who expressed genuine interest in Asia.

Perhaps the few similarities this last Imperial "father and son" relationship demonstrated was their personal fidelity and love for Russia?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline lexi4

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2005, 03:48:39 PM »
If we are looking for specific names, what about Baroness Buxhoeveden?
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2005, 08:32:34 PM »
Quote
If we are looking for specific names, what about Baroness Buxhoeveden?


Sorry but what is your point here?  ???


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2005, 01:33:11 PM »
THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS pps. 68-69 by King and Wilson.

They were talking about a sum of money 200,000 rubles collected by Count Paul von Benckendorff who gave it to Soloviev who claimed he gave the money to Buxhoevenden on 21 Feb 1918 who claimed she gave it to  Volkov who would give it to the IF who were at that time still in Tobolsk.

However, the Romanovs, it is said, never received this money.

Boris Soloviev was the  husband of Marie Rasputin.  It is thought he was organizing a rescue.  

Alexei Volkov, valet de chambre to Alexandra.  See diary: http://www.alexanderpalace.org/volkov/volkovmain.html

Count Paul von Benckendorff had been the Grand Marschal of the Imperial Court.  

Anyway, it seems Buxhoevenden never gave anyone her side of the story about what happened to the money from what I understand from some of the posts on other threads.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2005, 01:48:32 PM »
Alexei Volkov wrote:

>>So, I had to continue my journey by horse drawn carraige. The administration immediately found me a carriage and promised to send me a driver with whom I could arrange for departure. Going back home, I found a visiter; one of the servants to the Court who, I don't know how now, had learned of my arrival and got my address. He told me that there were also other people in Tiumen who had been in service to the Court: Gilliard, Miss Tegleva, Miss Herzberg, Baroness Buxhoeveden, and they all lived together. I went to see them. They were quite surprised to see my since they believed that I was dead, shot.

They all lived very mediocrely. We sat down to eat. The dinner was very plain, poor. We talked about everything that had happened. Baroness Buxhoeveden was very interested in my journey, gave me good advice, and gave me a gift of a pair of fur boots and a winter coat, which was exactly the things I needed en route as the snows of winter had set in. I said goodbye to all my colleagues from the Court and left them only with great pain in my heart.

I got to Tobolsk in a simple postal carriage.<<

If everyone thought Buxhoeveden had betrayed the IF,  would she still have been part of this group who remained loyal to the IF to the end???

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