Author Topic: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?  (Read 293408 times)

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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #810 on: July 19, 2010, 08:37:04 PM »
Churchill actually wanted to wage total war against the bolsheviks and could see what was coming but his  colleagues refused to  back him due to the war exhaustion at the time.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #811 on: July 20, 2010, 02:31:27 PM »
Churchill actually wanted to wage total war against the bolsheviks and could see what was coming but his  colleagues refused to  back him due to the war exhaustion at the time.

Yes,  his voice was strong against communism, and,  as you've said,  the whole world, including Russia, was exhausted and peace had a welcome ring.  

Then the communist took full advantage of this mood, crept into every shadowy corner and uttered  every promise for a better life for everyone....  The Russians ended up with a  Czar who called himself Stalin. 

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« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 02:39:06 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #812 on: July 20, 2010, 03:19:46 PM »

There were a number of Romanovs, including Nicholas II's mother,  who beat GD Kyril's betrayal after Nicholas II's abdication.  

Anyway,  Nicholas II's mother wanted to kidnap Alexandra and send her off to some distant place  because they didn't like her "interference"  and felt once she was gone they could talk sense into Nicholas II.............


This is what I've always suspected, that Nicholas II's mother was the root cause of the disaster.  Not to say that she didn't have reason to be upset with Alexandra or that she had any intention for what happened, but she managed to undermine them with the other nobility so there was no support.
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #813 on: July 20, 2010, 03:42:55 PM »
I think you misread that.  It was Nicholas' wife that was the problem, not his mother.  HIs mother wanted to kidnap her to stop her interfering in state affairs.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #814 on: July 20, 2010, 10:58:32 PM »
No, I did not misread it.  Both Nicholas' wife and mother may have had their share of blame in interfering where they should not have.
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #815 on: July 21, 2010, 12:49:34 AM »
Nicholas' mother was well regarded and loved.  there were no revolutions in her time as Tsaritsa.  She even escaped Russia. There were no scandals like the ones involving Rasputin.

Offline wildone

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #816 on: July 21, 2010, 02:16:54 AM »
Nicholas' mother was well regarded and loved.  there were no revolutions in her time as Tsaritsa.  She even escaped Russia. There were no scandals like the ones involving Rasputin.

I think the lack of revolutions had more to do with Alexander III's policies than Marie's popularity.  He was also only on the throne for 13 years; there might have been a revolution yet.  Plus, wasn't Marie under constant threat of attack when she was Tsarina?

Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #817 on: July 21, 2010, 05:36:48 AM »
Well there were certainly intermittent attacks like the bomb that disrailed the train and the bomb attack that killed GD Sergei in Moscow but  none of these turned into a revolution.  You are right that part of the reason was Alexander lll playing the role of autocrat to its enth power but Nicholas' mother played a balancing act that gave a soft and warm aspect to the Imperial raign.  With Nicholas, these roles were reversed with Alexandra playing the tough autocrat and Nicholas the sensitive but indecisive autocrat and these were not in line with their genders.  You say that Alexander was only in power for 13 years but their were no revolutions in that time but 9 years into Nicholas' reign, came a revolution that almost toppled his reign.  If Nicholas had chosen his wars better or refrained from wars altogether, he may not have had a problem.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #818 on: July 21, 2010, 06:21:05 AM »
Nicholas' mother played a balancing act that gave a soft and warm aspect to the Imperial reign. 

Marie was popular, well regarded and loved.  She even managed to play a balancing act that gave a soft and warm glo to the Imperial reign against her tough autocratic husband's actions.  That is a lot of influence.  Could it be some of her influence was directed against her daughter-in-law for whom she had a hearty dislike?  It would be difficult to rule out such negative influence, even though Nicholas's wife alone might have been responsible for all.

Either way, it's too bad that Marie didn't choose to use some of her soft and warm influence to be a wonderful mentor to Alexandra who tended to be depressed, shy. 
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #819 on: July 21, 2010, 06:36:57 AM »
I am absolutely sure that at the beginning of the marriage Marie tried to mentor Alexandra but Alexandra thought she knew everything.  She had a model of autocracy in her mind when she came to Russia and I think never departed from that image.  She continually pushed Nicholas towards a tough role that was polemically opposed to his natural character.

Offline Pezzazz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #820 on: July 21, 2010, 06:59:40 AM »
Where did you read that Maire tried to mentor Alexandra at the start?   All I've learned is that Marie was against the marriage from even before it happened and she never changed her mind.  Was their something about Marie refusing to give Alexandra the expected imperial jewels at the start of the marriage?
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Constantinople

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #821 on: July 21, 2010, 09:10:25 AM »
I remember reading it somewhere but cant remember where.  where did you read about Marie withholding the imperial jewels? It is certainly likely and they had a difficult relatiionship at the best times but knowing Marie's personality, I would find it unlikely that she did not try to help Alexandra at first.  Marie certainly was against the marriage and spent a lot of time talking Nicholas out of it.

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #822 on: July 21, 2010, 07:58:02 PM »
After Alex. III's sudden death, I believe,  Nicholas' mother was not going to give up her position she held as Alex. III's wife and it little mattered if  she was no longer Empress but just the Emperor Nicholas II's mother.  It seems to me that   she did just about everything she could to make sure everyone knew she was the one to address if they wanted Nicholas II's ear.  And, Alexandra made it easy for her mother-in-law to remain in this position with the Romanovs and the rest of the Russian elite.  The reason I said this is because Alexandra didn't understand the Russian Court life and the reasons behind huge luxurious balls   and  other gala affairs...  Alexandra's lean toward the  simple life excluded those who needed to be kept happy...

A long time ago FA wrote a post about why Nicholas II, who didn't like his socks, never changed them even though he was the richest man in the world and could have had any kind of sock he wanted.  And it appeas that Alexandra never understood why a man who didn't like his socks didn't just order something different.  Why didn't she.?  She wasn't stupid.  Whatever the reason,   she just didn't  or wouldn't understand.  So,  why didn't Nicholas II order different socks?  [I do not remember FA story so my post will be different but the reasoning will mean the same.].  If Nicholas II had told his valet that he wanted different socks, then the rejection of said socks would have been like a shock wave all the way down  the ladder.  It   would affect  the owner on down  to the peasants making the socks.  No one would ask why the socks were rejected.  No one questioned the Emperor.  Therefore, it was to be understood that if the Emperor rejected the socks then everyone must reject the socks.  If no socks could be sold then the business failed. But the shock wave didn't stop at this point.  The peasant, who had made the rejected sock,  could not find  new work because they had had failed the Emperor.  Most of the rejected sock makers had families...  No work meant no money coming in to pay for food and housing...  The city streets would have more beggars by the end of the month.

Everything that Alexandra did wrong was exposed  and if she did something right it was mocked by Nicholas II's mother and her gossiping friends and their friends and the gossip  would in time  end up being heard by the tongue waggers in distant Russian villages.

In time,  Alexandra isolated her family like a jealous and over protective  "cluck"  (a hen who's taken the responsibility of hatching and raising the chicks).  One can only imagine the horror felt by Nicholas II's mother and fan club when Nicholas II took up the position as Commander-and-Chief and left the affairs of state to the "cluck", who had no idea what Russians needed.

I think it was  Nicholas II's mother whowas  one of the first to betray Russia's Empress Alexandra which in turned failed her son  which in the end would be one of the reasons the Romanov Dynasty ended.



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« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:01:12 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #823 on: July 24, 2010, 04:20:27 AM »
Since we're on the subject of Nicholas II's mother, Marie Feodorovna, I will say this: I don't think she added anything to the intelligence factor of the Romanov dynasty. In fact, quite the opposite. And if you look at her sister Alix/Alexandra's children with Edward VII of Great Britain, you'll see what I mean. But this wasn't necessarily her fault, it was part of an overall trend: there was a general dumbing-down of the royal houses of Europe and Russia in the latter part of the nineteenth century. No more Frederick or Catherine the Greats, nor even Victorias or Alexander IIs, just... George V, Wilhelm II, Nicholas II. A tragedy all around, given their devastating mutual legacy of World War I.

And it was the overwhelming catastrophe of World War I that destroyed Nicholas II, Bear, not any secret conspiracy on the part of nobles or the military or the duma or revolutionaries or whoever or whatever.
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Alixz

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Re: Who Betrayed Nicholas II?
« Reply #824 on: July 24, 2010, 09:47:18 AM »
I first read about Marie refusing to give up the State Jewels to Alexandra in Robert Massies's book.

In my opinion, Marie did revel is making Alexandra look bad.  She didn't like her and didn't want Nicholas to marry a German.  Both Marie and Alexandra of England being Danish had a virulent hatred of anything German. (Which is odd since Alexandra of Denmark married Edward of England who was just about as German as they come.)

Marie as dowager took precedence over the reigning empress and Marie took full advantage of that.  She could have allowed her daughter in law more room to grow and more respect, but she didn't.

Would it have been such a hardship for Marie to give up walking on her son's arm in procession and let her daughter in law take that important place?

And I don't buy the old "things were always done that way and couldn't be changed" - crap.  We are talking about people with absolute power, but yet they seemed to have absolutely no power over anything.

Even socks - it would seem.  Nicholas could have changed his socks and not made it a problem for the sock maker.  He just didn't know how or didn't pay attention.  By simply calling the sock maker to the palace and giving him some kind of recognition or thank you for your service, or pension or Faberge trinket, he could have made the man's day and then changed his socks.  Good grief!

Did he do the same with his suit maker or boot maker?  Just keep buying the same old thing year after year?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 09:51:12 AM by Alixz »